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Void of Course, when is it actually VOC?
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Clinton Soule



Joined: 14 Sep 2008
Posts: 471
Location: Reno, Nevada

Posted: Tue Mar 19, 2013 10:20 pm    Post subject: Void of Course, when is it actually VOC? Reply with quote

Void of Course, when is it actually VOC?

Recently, it has been brought up by a devout student of CA that the Moon is Not VOC when in it's moeity is still connecting with a planet though separated, as Lilly says:

CA II, page 110:

Quote:

"Separation, it is in the first place, when two Planets are de-
parted but six minutes distances from each other, as let SA be in
10. degr. and 25. of Aries and JU in 10. degr. and 25. min. of Aries:
now in these degrees and minutes they are in perfect 0; but
when JU shall get into 10. degr. and 31. or 32. minutes of Aries,
he shall said to be separating from SA; yet because SA hath
9. degr. allowed him for his rayes, and JU hath also the same
number allowed him, JU cannot be said to be totally separated
or cleere from the rayes of SA, untill he hath got 9. whole de-
grees further into ar, or is fully 9. degr. distant from him,
for the halfe of JU his orbe is 4. degr. 30. min. and the halfe of
SA his orbe is 4. degr. 30. min. added together they make 9.
whole degrees; for every Planet that applies is allowed halfe
his owne orbs and halfe the orbs of that Planet from whom
he separates: As if SO and MO be in any aspect, the MO shall then
be separated from the SO, when she is fully distant from the SO
7. degr. and 30. min. viz. half the orbs or the SO, and 6. degr. the
moity of her owne orbes; in all 13. degr. and 30. minutes."


Now I'm thankful for these Forums(11th house) that Lilly and the Ancients I'm sure would have relished, and I found recently many have misunderstood this concept of 'when is Luna actually out of orb' of being in aspect which would make her truly VOC!

During the recent Mercury Rx, many including a Moderator, were confused upon this method that in researching it shows that evidently many students of CA have misunderstood through the centuries.

Considering the student's adeptness who brought this to light, *is the Moon Not VOC if the two moeitys are still connecting*, as like the Moon has separated by several degrees yet still in orb by Al Buruni's table which Lilly utilized?

Clinton Garrett Soule

Wise men know how little they know
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zoidsoft



Joined: 10 Feb 2006
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Location: Pulaski, NY

Posted: Wed Mar 20, 2013 6:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

There are several definitions for VOC Moon. One even has the rule that if the Moon will not contact any rays within the next 30 degrees, then it is VOC. I think since the Moon is responsible for bringing the "effluents" to the earth from the heavens, that this question is not "either or" but rather "how void is the Moon at any given moment?". There are times when the Moon is very active and moving quickly which means that it is very busy. There are other times when it is not doing that much. And then there are times when it is doing nothing at all. The question is most applicable in horary questions when you want to know if something will have traction in the world or not, so to save your sanity, a yes/no answer is more useful than a maybe.
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Clinton Soule



Joined: 14 Sep 2008
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Posted: Wed Mar 20, 2013 9:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Curtis Manwaring, Zoidsoft, said:

Quote:
One even has the rule that if the Moon will not contact any rays within the next 30 degrees, then it is VOC. I think since the Moon is responsible for bringing the "effluents" to the earth from the heavens, that this question is not "either or" but rather "how void is the Moon at any given moment?". There are times when the Moon is very active and moving quickly which means that it is very busy. There are other times when it is not doing that much. And then there are times when it is doing nothing at all.


That is very informative and appreaciated, but am I understanding Lilly and the Forum member via skyscript correctly who pointed out, in that if the Moon has separated by several degrees, yet is in separation but the orb or moeity still connects to a planet using Al Burini's table of orbs and moeity that the Moon is Not VOC?

In other words, Luna is separated from Mars about five degrees and will aspect no other planet before she leaves the sign, is she VOC?

Clinton Garrett Soule

Wise men know how little they know
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viola magmar



Joined: 04 Feb 2011
Posts: 83
Location: Rome

Posted: Thu Mar 21, 2013 9:40 am    Post subject: Moon VOC? Reply with quote

Hi Clinton,

let's wait and read. Meanwhile, and here I do regret it so much for having lost the specific chart and reading, in early April 2011 I had put a question as to selling late mother's flat.

Indications were poor; detriments, fall, retrogradations. Possibly even an apparently VOC Moon. Everything was against. Yet, mainly, MR's and declinations, as I recall, did save the outcome.

The real estate agent called on 13th of April saying the flat was sold. In fact, I had titled the query: who's gonna save who, feeling the the outcome had a way out.

violaciao
sky's ways are infinite
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Clinton Soule



Joined: 14 Sep 2008
Posts: 471
Location: Reno, Nevada

Posted: Thu Mar 21, 2013 7:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Viola stated:

Quote:
let's wait and read. Meanwhile, and here I do regret it so much for having lost the specific chart and reading, in early April 2011 I had put a question as to selling late mother's flat.

Indications were poor; detriments, fall, retrogradations. Possibly even an apparently VOC Moon. Everything was against. Yet, mainly, MR's and declinations, as I recall, did save the outcome.

The real estate agent called on 13th of April saying the flat was sold. In fact, I had titled the query: who's gonna save who, feeling the the outcome had a way out.


***Viola, this has nothing to do with this topic in discussion, could you have the moderator remove it and place it under the proper topic?***

Or is this a language barrier in transition from Itallion to English?

**Yes I realize in theory almost one person out of 12 have Pisces on the natal third house unless it was intercepted, since the world began. But Pisces 3rd house natives, need to focus more upon what they are doing in communication and we astrologers are Not passing judgment upon them!**

Forum members who understand natal astrology, I think you will agree.

Clinton Garrett Soule

Wise men know how little they know
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viola magmar



Joined: 04 Feb 2011
Posts: 83
Location: Rome

Posted: Thu Mar 21, 2013 8:45 pm    Post subject: VOC Moon Reply with quote

Clinton,

"Italian" not "Itallion".

Between the lines it could be deviced a contribution to this thread: Moon seemed VOC yet it performed. Possibly because she was in moiety of orb and perfecting out of sign. Tables are given by more than one astrologer, ancient and modern. Technique, to me, is to be experienced and what Zoidsoft writes, is very appropriate.

Stay well. BTW, I reckon moderators here, too, are possibly busy with something of different weight.

And yes, I must admit that I have some difficulty in focusing on the way you make use of the English language.

viola magmar
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Clinton Soule



Joined: 14 Sep 2008
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Posted: Sat Mar 23, 2013 11:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Viola,

Please did I say PLEASE contact the moderater or go and paste a NEW outcome where it shows EDIT at the top RIGHT.

Does the below quote belong here or are you destroying the effect of the forum discission?

Quote:
Hi Clinton,

let's wait and read. Meanwhile, and here I do regret it so much for having lost the specific chart and reading, in early April 2011 I had put a question as to selling late mother's flat.

Indications were poor; detriments, fall, retrogradations. Possibly even an apparently VOC Moon. Everything was against. Yet, mainly, MR's and declinations, as I recall, did save the outcome.

The real estate agent called on 13th of April saying the flat was sold. In fact, I had titled the query: who's gonna save who, feeling the the outcome had a way out.

violaciao



MAYBE since it is appearing that either your 3rd house communication skills, or is just too confusing or you may me using LANGUAGE TRANSLATORS via the webb that are NOT that great, not giving the right result!

Could you find someone versed in excellent ENGLISH to interpret and post for you as it appears since you are all over the place, not even connecting in english, like you may be trying to translate through webbsites yet not of english appitude , that you appear to to NOT have the interpretative skills to effectively communicate; ****you need a person to help with positive aspects form *venus, sun, saturn, and espeacially mercury in their 3rd natal house* in their natal third house as the translator you are using is deafining, causing others to NOT hear you effectively, and making it hard the forum to understand your RESPONSES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

COULD YOU REMOVE THE LAST TWO POSTS AS THEY MAY BE CONFUSING THE FORUM AS I DOUBT THAT ENGLISH SKILLS ARE BEING UTILIZED EFFECTIVELY AND ARE CONFUSING OUR FORUM MEMBERS????????????????????????????????

Your posts belongs on the thread about your ****house sale***, NOT did he say NOT on this discussion!!!!!!!!!

If I was in Portugal, and could NOT speak effectively portugeese would I appear disruptive and possibly insulting if I did not understand the language of the nation?

Clinton Garrett Soule

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viola magmar



Joined: 04 Feb 2011
Posts: 83
Location: Rome

Posted: Sun Mar 24, 2013 8:20 am    Post subject: VOC Moon? Reply with quote

Clinton,

maybe YOU require some peace of mind.

Ask moderator, if he deems it proper, to delete my posts here. General understanding, as far as Forums are concerned, is that topics belong to no one in particular. My posts are neither insulting nor out of topic as you insist in saying.

And if you could take a slower path on mine, here, you would clearly see that they do not belong to the thread regarding the sale of my own house.
They refer to my late mother's flat sale in 2009.

BTW: I spent years in United Kingdown, where I had the privilege of studying in Oxford and obtain diplomas in English, French and German, and Proficiency Certificate for the English Language itself. That means, I could teach the language. And have also worked in the United Nations for almost twenty years, with great satisfaction and making mother-toungue members perfectly happy with my English, French, German and Spanish. And my own splendid one, Italian. Not Itallion.

Stay well and turn this page over, Clinton Garrett Soul whose posts I have difficulty in understanding. And that makes me wonder: where do you, come from, Clinton Garrett Soul?

viola magmar
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Tom
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Posted: Sun Mar 24, 2013 10:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Let's keep the personal stuff out of the threads. . I'll delete posts when I think it's necessary.
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viola magmar



Joined: 04 Feb 2011
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Posted: Sun Mar 24, 2013 10:59 am    Post subject: VOC Moon? Reply with quote

Thank you Tom.

I appreciate.

viola magmar
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Clinton Soule



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Posted: Wed Apr 03, 2013 11:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Deb's article best describes what I wished to convey about the separation of the Moon from a planet though still in orb:

http://www.skyscript.co.uk/moon2.html#voc

Quote:
1. The Moon is fully separated (ie, out of orb) of its last aspectual contact and not yet within orb of its next aspectual contact (already defined as 'void' above).
None of the 35 charts published in Christian Astrology, nor any of Lilly's horaries that I have seen published elsewhere demonstrate the Moon in such a condition. In fact, I don't recall the Moon being in this position in any of my own horaries or in any other historical examples. This is not surprising since it describes a lack of influence or interest in both fields: the relevant past and future of the situation.

2. The Moon is still within orb of its last aspectual contact but not yet within orb of its next aspectual contact.
It is expected that the Moon will remain responsive to the influence of its last planetary contact for as long as the two bodies remain within the limits of the orb. [20] Hence we could argue that the Moon is not truly 'void' in this position. However, Lilly refers to the Moon as 'ad vac [going to nothing]' in two of the three charts he publishes which have the Moon still within orb of its last aspect but out of orb of its next aspect. [21] In one judgement he labours upon the significance of this, clearly describing the Moon as going to be 'void of course' for a little time and interpreting a period of confusion and inactivity that corresponds with the number of degrees that the Moon must travel before it enters into orb of new aspects that perfect within its present sign. So even though the Moon is not yet empty of the influence of its previous aspect, the fact that it cannot presently communicate this influence forward to its next contact, shows that the Moon's 'course' is interrupted: the flow of virtue cannot resume until the Moon can communicate freely between the planets.
. . . . . snip. . . .

The second and third definitions are correct according to Lilly's perspective, but they do not describe an empty, powerless Moon which is devoid of all significance; nor do they suggest that the chart cannot be read. They relate to either a recent or upcoming period of inactivity/communication breakdown, and describe periods were there is a potential interruption in the development of the situation. Some of the most revealing charts will be examined at the end of this article to consider the impact of this in practical chart judgement.

It is apparent that the definition of a void of course Moon as understood by most modern astrologers bears little relation to William Lilly's technique, even though it was once assumed to be an accurate description of it. In this it is claimed that the Moon is 'void of course' from the moment that it perfects its last aspect within its present sign up to the moment that it enters a new sign.


Like the article states Many Modernes mistakenly view the Moon VOC when separated from a planet though the moieties are still connecting while separating; Lilly Did Not teach this!

Clinton Garrett Soule

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viola magmar



Joined: 04 Feb 2011
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Location: Rome

Posted: Thu Apr 04, 2013 6:23 am    Post subject: Moon VOC? Reply with quote

I think it'd be interesting if sample charts could be posted, indicating that an apparently VOC Moon did not preclude a positive outcome.

I'll check into my archive.

v
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johannes susato



Joined: 04 Jan 2009
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Posted: Thu Apr 04, 2013 12:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

viola magmar wrote:
I think it'd be interesting if sample charts could be posted, indicating that an apparently VOC Moon did not preclude a positive outcome.

I'll check into my archive.

v


Viola, as I think you can agree that "an apparently VOC Moon" can only be a Moon who is called VOC by all - at least by the vast majority of all - authors, the choice of your expression seems a little bit problematic.
Or is in fact the Moon in your example completely separated from another planet or his aspect (i.e. out of the half of the sum of both their orbs = the moiety of both their orbs = the moieties of both their orbs) and does she not enter into an application to another Planet or his aspect as long as she is in her present sign?
After all we know in practice there is only very little room for the Moon to be called VOC by all defintitions of VOC we know.

I really hope that your searching for your example is not in vain because your repeated announcement of this example in different fora has greatly exited my interest to see it actually.

Let's hope your enterprise is not under some Star VOC ! Very Happy

Johannes
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Chris Brennan



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Posted: Fri Apr 05, 2013 3:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I wrote an article recently where I tried to summarize the different definitions of void of course:

http://theastrologydictionary.com/v/void-of-course/

At this point it looks like there are three separate definitions, although one of the definitions is somewhat contentious because it relies on an interpretation of Lilly's chart examples. It seems like a lot of people who follow Lilly's work use this third definition of void of course though, and so I'm surprised that I haven't seen it discussed more frequently.

Hopefully that article should clarify the different definitions though.
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viola magmar



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Posted: Fri Apr 05, 2013 6:25 am    Post subject: Moon VOC? Reply with quote

Johannes,

I agree that too often I give for granted that people are quick minded. I referred to different ways students and astrologers interpret whether Moon is VOC, according to their own approach to the subject, there being different ways to get to the much-discussed point. I am one of those who are keen on research and not always comply strictly to set, traditional rules. I'll be a student for all my life and love that.

As for the blooming chart, I could bite my elbows for having lost even the tiniest reference to it. And I have so many other charts that it will take its time. In the meanwhile I am busy reviewing three/four books I have written, which must be ready for publication and that's a heavy toll on my shoulders. Hurting for sitting too long at pc.

Thank you for your attention. violaciao

.
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