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Mystery Chart
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Stellarium



Joined: 26 May 2010
Posts: 97

Posted: Sun Mar 10, 2013 9:45 pm    Post subject: Mystery Chart Reply with quote

To refine things somewhat, I have asked 7 multiple choice questions which concern fundamental life issues such as occupation, health and relationships. Obviously, it is expected that posters will give an astrological explanation for picking an answer, no matter how brief or detailed that explanation is. The natal chart is shown in the tropical and sidereal zodiacs and the Alcabitus house system is used but of course posters can choose their own (traditional) house system to delineate the chart.

I will reveal the person's identity and the answers to the questions in five days time (Friday the 15th). If anyone wants clarity about something related to the natal chart or the questions, then I'll gladly reply.

Tropical zodiac:

Sidereal zodiac (Lahiri):



Basic information about native and birth data


The chart is that of a male who is no longer living. The chart is not listed on Astrodatabank or any similar website. I would consider the birth time to be 'AA'.

The Lots

Lots shown are Fortune, Spirit, Exaltation, Eros (also Basis in this figure) and Necessity.

Planetary motion

No planets are retrograde or stationary.

Planetary bounds or terms

Dorotheus bounds are shown.

The Questions:

Occupation

1. What was this man's occuption?

a) Surgeon.
b) Police Officer.
c) Priest.
d) Artist.
e) Journalist.

Fame/Eminence

2. Was he famous?

a) No.
b) Only briefly.
c) He was a legend in his own lifetime.
d) Yes, for the manner of his death.
e) Only posthumously unrelated to the manner of his death.

Marriage and Children

3. What best describes this man's marital status?

a) Never married and rarely if ever dated.
b) Never married but dated frequently.
c) Multiple marriages and infidelities.
d) Happily married for life.

4. Did he have children?

a) No.
b) Yes, only one.
c) Yes, two to four.
d) Yes, five or more.

Health, Longevity and Manner of Death

5. Which of the following best describes his health status?

a) Very healthy and fit all his life.
b) Sickly and frequently ill for most of his life.
c) Very accident prone and numerous injuries on account of this.
d) Afflicted by serious mental illness in the second half of his life.

6. Which best describes this man's longevity (for the era and economic status of the country in which he lived)?

a) premature death (as a young adult or in middle age).
b) about average (55 - 69).
c) above average (70 - 84).
d) exceptional longevity (85+).

7. Did he die violently?

a) Yes.
b) No.

**End of Questions**
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james_m



Joined: 05 Dec 2011
Posts: 3708
Location: vancouver island

Posted: Mon Mar 11, 2013 4:28 am    Post subject: Re: Mystery Chart Reply with quote

Stellarium wrote:

1. What was this man's occuption?

a) Surgeon.
b) Police Officer.
c) Priest.
d) Artist.
e) Journalist.


journalist - writer type. moon oriental to the sun. ruler of the midheaven in 3rd sign from the ascendant with mercury and conjunction pof. moon in the pof 10th. north node is gemini as well.. sun/moon sextile which is reflected in the pof and pos position. mercury and venus in the pos 5th while in the first of the pof.. cardinal cross with relief found in the 3rd.

Stellarium wrote:

2. Was he famous?

a) No.
b) Only briefly.
c) He was a legend in his own lifetime.
d) Yes, for the manner of his death.
e) Only posthumously unrelated to the manner of his death.

c) he was a legend in his own lifetime. jupiter on the midheaven and in the solar 10th.. pos conjunct midheaven/jupiter - thanks sun/moon sextile and angle of the midheaven here..

Stellarium wrote:

3. What best describes this man's marital status?

a) Never married and rarely if ever dated.
b) Never married but dated frequently.
c) Multiple marriages and infidelities.
d) Happily married for life.

don't know.. mars/saturn in the 5th is an inhibiting combo for romantic liaisons... mercury seems isolated in no close aspect to any other planet, and ruled by the saturn in 5th.. my guess is -> a) with the caveat that jupiter in the 11th reflects back on this house, although not the 'house of marriage, it might have great bearing.

Stellarium wrote:

4. Did he have children?
a) No.
b) Yes, only one.
c) Yes, two to four.
d) Yes, five or more.

my guess is a) for the saturn/mars combo in the 5th. jupiter in the 11th might change this, but i will go with a).

Stellarium wrote:

5. Which of the following best describes his health status?

a) Very healthy and fit all his life.
b) Sickly and frequently ill for most of his life.
c) Very accident prone and numerous injuries on account of this.
d) Afflicted by serious mental illness in the second half of his life.

saturn/mars square onto the sun doesn't look favourable for avoiding accidents. however sun in capricorn and squares to saturn show up in the charts of long lived people in some of the research i have witnessed.. i will go with c) for the mars/saturn square sun. mars in aries is more impulsive and potentially accident prone tied up in the jupiter/saturn opposition.
Stellarium wrote:

6. Which best describes this man's longevity (for the era and economic status of the country in which he lived)?

a) premature death (as a young adult or in middle age).
b) about average (55 - 69).
c) above average (70 - 84).
d) exceptional longevity (85+).

based on my earlier comments on the sun in capricorn square saturn in the solar 4th i am going to go with d).. perhaps jupiter ruler of the ascendant on the midheaven is really the astro reason, but d) is my guess..
Stellarium wrote:

7. Did he die violently?
a) Yes.
b) No.

b) i don't believe he did. i see no connections with the mars/saturn conjunction to the 8th which is what i would be looking for.. jupiter ruler of the ascendant casts a favourable light on this chart.
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johannes susato



Joined: 04 Jan 2009
Posts: 1464

Posted: Mon Mar 11, 2013 9:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hello Stellarium,

I have an organizational question: would you not agree with me that it would be a lot easier to follow your very interesting and diiferentiated questions, if you could split this thread into two parts, i.e. threads here on this classical forum, the one containing the tropical chart and the second containing the siderial chart?

Thus the orientation following your questions by writing or reading the coming texts in this then two threads would be a lot easier and more interesting and this without loosing the siderial part to another forum.

Johannes
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damon



Joined: 23 Sep 2012
Posts: 419

Posted: Mon Mar 11, 2013 1:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

artist moon and its lord in 5 both in sect aspecting onde another

no children or only one and sick, mars lord of 12th, native spent a lot of money with his illness(saturn lord of 2)

Married to wealthy wife

Sickly and frequently ill for most of his life

Premature death(lord of 8th in 12th)

Not violent but maybe public(lord of IC in MC
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Tom
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Posts: 3508
Location: New Jersey, USA

Posted: Mon Mar 11, 2013 3:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've given this some thought and decided to reverse my position on sidereal postings. The latest will not affect this thread. It can continue the way it is.

We have a sidereal Forum. The mystery charts and other charts for discussion using the sidereal zodiac or any of the sidereal zodiacs can be posted there. The traditional Forum was established as a safe haven to discuss traditional astrology without interference from modern concepts. After some reflection I think the introduction of sidereal charts can be a "foot in the door" to get around that restriction. In the future please limit sidereal discussions to the sidereal Forum.

PS I'm not going to argue this. We have a Forum dedicated to the use of Sidereal astrology. There is no need to discuss it here.
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Graham F



Joined: 22 Mar 2008
Posts: 367

Posted: Mon Mar 11, 2013 5:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tom
I thought this was already your position. But please specify if we are allowed to say here that we've posted there?
Graham
p.s. I of course recognise your right to exclude whatever techniques, house systems, dignites etc you like from this forum, but please don't say that sidereal is a "modern" technique. It may possibly be wrong, tropical may possibly be an improvement, but sidereal is not more "modern". See numerous articles on this site by Deborah Houlding etc.
You could avoid this whole issue if you just called this forum "Traditional and Ancient technique (tropical)", things would be clear. Otherwise this is going to keep happening as new people arrive who don't know about the ban.
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Martin Gansten
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Joined: 05 Jul 2008
Posts: 1282
Location: Malmö, Sweden

Posted: Mon Mar 11, 2013 6:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tom: I do understand your concern, but like it or not, traditional and ancient astrology is not all tropical. In fact, it was largely non-tropical (meaning that many/most astrologers didn't use the Ptolemy/Hipparchus zodiac) until well into the Middle Ages -- say, 9th or 10th century. Even in the 16th century you get people like Giuntini (Junctinus) arguing for precession-corrected revolutions! If someone today wants to do astrology Persian 7th-century-style, or revolutions Giuntini-style, or Hellenistic astrology Valens-style, are you going to ban them from posting in the Traditional & Ancient forum?

I do traditional astrology (I've never done any other kind), I teach traditional astrology, I read traditional astrological texts in three classical languages, I've written a fairly respected book on a traditional astrological technique of prediction and a number of scholarly papers on traditional astrology; and yet I have never used the Ptolemaic zodiac. If this forum goes exclusively tropical by decree, it (and Skyscript as a whole) will definitely lose much of its attraction for me. And what would be the point? Imposing a standard of orthodoxy that didn't exist for half of horoscopic astrology's history?

In short, traditional and sidereal are not mutually exclusive categories. If anyone (myself included) wants to analyse a chart using strictly traditional techniques in a sidereal zodiac, then I suggest that they should be allowed to do so in the Traditional forum and/or the Sidereal forum as they see fit. I don't see that this would be any more inconvenient than allowing, as we do, a free choice between the multiple traditional house systems. (Naturally, such posts shouldn't degenerate into squabbles over which zodiac or house system is better.)
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Mark
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Posted: Mon Mar 11, 2013 7:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

On the whole I dont see this being a problem when we are discussing traditional concepts or historical points. Its only when we get to practical chart examples of a technique this becomes potentially controversial.

The Mystery chart exercises have brought this issue to the forefront. I have already stated I dont see why charts cant be displayed in a sidereal zodiac here. I presume part of Tom's concern is that beginners might confused with the focus on conflicting zodiacs. However, as long as people are clear what zodiac they are discussing it shouldn't be an issue. Traditional astrology is bigger than one zodiac. Plus why should a separate zodiac be a particular confusion for beginners? We happily discuss the complex intricacies of primaries and zodiacal releasing without letting that worry us. If we worried about putting off beginners as a criteria for threads we would be left with a pretty slim forum. Judging by the quality of many posters here I dont think we should understimate our members.

I suppose one issue we do have is that a disproportionate number of the siderealists here are traditional in focus. Not really surprising considering this is Skyscript! Hence if you look at the sidereal forum on Skyscript it operates de facto as a mini traditional sidereal forum. Not because of any decree by Martin but simply reflecting the inclination of members here.

So I suppose the feeling of some tropicalists might be that siderealists here want to have their cake and eat it. They have a de facto traditional forum where they can discuss traditional astrology from an exclusively sidereal perspective, yet they expect the traditional forum to incorporate both zodiacs.

On the other hand I think Martin's points above are very strong. Plus potentially any kind of siderealist can post in the sidereal forum.

The really difficult one is what is traditional? Is including Indian techniques pushing the limits of this forum too far? Possibly it is. We do have a separate forum for Indian astrology.

Like all difficult issues I dont think the arguments are all on one side. What I do feel is that this is a fundamental issue regarding where Skyscript goes as a site. I think most would agree the traditional forum is the heart of Skyscript. Normally, I would always leave a forum moderator to make their own decision on policy and leave it at that.

However, I think this issue is so fundamental to the future of Skyscript I suggest all the moderators should try to reach a collegiate view on this. If we cant agree I think we may need to give Deborah Houlding the final say on this controversial issue.

Mark
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Last edited by Mark on Mon Mar 11, 2013 8:14 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Martin Gansten
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Posted: Mon Mar 11, 2013 7:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mark wrote:
So I suppose the feeling of some tropicalists might be that siderealists here want to have their cake and eat it. They have a de facto traditional forum where they can discuss traditional astrology from an exclusively sidereal perspective, yet they expect the traditional forum to incorporate both zodiacs.

Speaking only for myself, although I accepted moderatorship of the Sidereal forum when it was offered, I didn't ask for it to be created and don't feel very strongly about it; but I would hate to lose the Traditional forum. And I do think the reason several 'sidereal traditionalists' post there rather than here is that they have been warned off this forum. To me, that's a real shame.

Mark wrote:
The really difficult one is what is traditional? Is including Indian techniques pushing the limits of this forum too far? Possibly it is. We do have a separate forum for Indian astrology.

I agree. Of course traditional Indian astrology is, well, traditional; but it has developed in ways that make it significantly different from the 'greater tradition' of horoscopic astrology (the exception being Tajika, or Indianized Perso-Arabic astrology).
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Tom
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Location: New Jersey, USA

Posted: Mon Mar 11, 2013 8:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

My main concern, and I've stated this, is that the mixture of tropical and sidereal charts is a back door entrance to non-traditional techniques sneaked into the traditional forum. I realize we can use traditional techniques with sidereal astrology, but we already have a sidereal forum. I don't want to "upgrade" from moderator to censor and have to read every post in detail to see if this is being done, and then spend more time arguing with the miscreant who is rationalizing his or her actions. I'm not making a argument here as to what is and is not truly traditional. I'm trying to avoid a problem that has come up in the past, i.e. members trying to get modern astrology on the traditional forum for whatever reason.

Secondly I don't understand the need to bring in two zodiacs in the same thread. For example, which chart is damon referring to in his post on this thread, or james for that matter? And if it doesn't matter, why put up both charts?

Thirdly, the sidereal forum was established to satisfy the desires of people to discuss charts using the sidereal zodiac. I don't understand, then, why it is necessary to bring that here. People who use that zodiac and prefer it, have a forum.

Finally, if I put up a mystery chart or any chart for that matter, then someone wants to pop in - mid thread, - and introduce a sidereal chart to the same discussion when none was invited, how is that to be handled? I wasn't impressed with that when it was done, I think on one of the Worsdale discussions. It threw the whole thing off track. If the original poster has no knowledge or experience using the sidereal zodiac, is he or she to be left out of part of the discussions on his or her topic?

I think all of these issues can be nicely handled on the Sidereal Forum. Traditional techniques can be used there, too. And people who do not wish to discuss sidereal astrology are not forced to do so. And they would be forced into the sidereal aspect whether they wanted to or not simply by being part of a thread they once believed was tropical.

All I can see is the potential for confusion. I'm trying to avoid that. I'm not making a statement about what is and isn't traditional. I'd feel the same way about introducing Babylonian astrology into a discussion of Lilly's astrology. They're both traditional, but the similarities soon begin to fade.
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james_m



Joined: 05 Dec 2011
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Posted: Mon Mar 11, 2013 9:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

the way i see it, there are about maybe 15 or so regular posters here, with some occasional posters that post very infrequently.. if someone actually takes the time to read any of the posts, it quickly becomes clear whether they are working in sidereal or tropical.. i don't get wound up if someone uses a different house system then myself, and i see no reason to get out of joint over whether it is sid or trop either! but really - it is so easy to see all of this without needing to create more walls to help those who don't really want to read something that doesn't fit their idea of something.. - we already have the categories - traditional verses general.. i think most of the regulars here respect this already.. if someone doesn't they usually get told about it quickly too! i see no problem given all these reasons and more..
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Graham F



Joined: 22 Mar 2008
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Posted: Mon Mar 11, 2013 9:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Martin Gansten wrote:
If this forum goes exclusively tropical by decree, it (and Skyscript as a whole) will definitely lose much of its attraction for me. And what would be the point? Imposing a standard of orthodoxy that didn't exist for half of horoscopic astrology's history?


Martin and others, who work sidereally, have been posting interesting contributions in this forum on a very wide range of topic (primaries, lots, terms and triplicities...). It would be a shame to lose these contributors. They may not wish to be forced to stay in their own little corner, which is not very active. Skyscript and this forum would be poorer without their contributions.

Mark wrote:
Quote:
On the whole I dont see this being a problem when we are discussing traditional concepts or historical points. Its only when we get to practical chart examples of a technique this becomes potentially controversial.

That's actually why I posted my replies to the mystery charts in the sidereal forum, and simply indicated in this one that I'd posted. When I asked for a sidereal version once I didn't realise that this was a faux-pas. I did not intend to post any sidereal analysis here, so I was in fact already following Tom's rules. Then Tom brought up a sidereal versus tropical point, about Mars being in detriment sidereally, and I responded by indicating that I had mentioned something about this in my reply in the sidereal forum.

But on reflection, I really don't see why we should be forced into this rather absurd "don't ask, don't tell" position, where we can discuss theoretical points about techniques that sometimes date back to pre-tropical times but have to remain discreet about what we're actually doing. And we should be careful of losing one or two people who are really useful to have around!
Graham
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Graham F



Joined: 22 Mar 2008
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Posted: Mon Mar 11, 2013 10:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've posted an asnwer on the sidreal forum.
DDAADCA
Graham
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Stellarium



Joined: 26 May 2010
Posts: 97

Posted: Tue Mar 12, 2013 1:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks to James-m, Damon and Graham for their answers.

Johannes, I believe you requested a seperate thread in the sidereal froum? Graham has already started one with a link to this post and I will add the chart and the questions after making this post.

I'll leave the debate about appropriateness of sidereal in the ancient forum to the moderators who have posted on the thread.
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Tom
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Posted: Tue Mar 12, 2013 3:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
i don't get wound up if someone uses a different house system


There is absolutely no comparison between different house systems, which are usually only a couple of degrees different from each other, and different zodiacs which place planets in different signs. Two astrologers could discuss the same chart and never know they were using different house systems. Not true with different zodiacs.

If the sidereal forum can be only sidereal by decree, why can't this be only tropical? I still have not seen a reason why we have to incorporate sidereal everywhere. Going over there and posting tropical charts would seem to be intrusive, and it is.

I did say quite clearly in my last post:


Quote:
Secondly I don't understand the need to bring in two zodiacs in the same thread.


For me that is a far bigger problem than simply posting and discussing sidereal astrology and keeping it separate in the traditional Forum. But that only brings us back to the Sidereal Forum and its purpose. Anyone can post anything about sidereal over there. Why is it necessary to do it here as well?

I still don't understand why it is so important to some people to have a free reign with sidereal when there is a separate forum for it. I can't, nor should I be allowed to interject traditional astrology in the General Forum or book reviews in the horary Forum. Is that a form of apartheid too? What can't you do there that you can only do here? No one is forbidden to use the sidereal Forum and I repeat it was set up for precisely this purpose. Now it seems as though it is a major inconvenience to use it, and a necessity to incorporate sidereal everywhere any siderealist sees fit regardless of the purpose or intent of any other poster.

Also I went over the Quickie Mystery Thread where the original sidereal discussion took place. And what happened there is precisely what I want to avoid. The discussion went from picking things out about the chart to what was and wasn't essential dignity and how that works in sidereal and we introduced some Indian astrology and so on. In other words, although we did have a pretty good discussion on the chart, the sidereal discussions, in my opinion, detracted from the purpose of the thread by creating a potpourri of topics that had nothing to do with the original intent of the post, and brought it perhaps to a premature end. There is little if any common thread between sidereal and tropical and that is a problem especially for people who have no knowledge of or care about the sidereal zodiacs.

Also I stated that sidereal charts could be discussed but asked that they be kept separate. This too is not enough for some despite having a place to do everything they want to do in an appropriate Forum.

I don't see a major problem with keeping order and discussing topics within the Forums that were created for them. I don't see a problem keeping two entirely different ways of looking at a chart separate. I cannot understand at any level why astrologers using the sidereal zodiac find it an imposition to use an entire Forum created specially for them.


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