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What House System Do You Prefer?
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What House System do you Prefer?
Alcabitius
9%
 9% 
Placidus
19%
 19% 
Whole Sign
51%
 51% 
Equal
3%
 3% 
Koch
3%
 3% 
Regiomontanus
12%
 12% 

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Paul
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Posted: Fri Mar 08, 2013 1:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mark wrote:

Despite its detractors equal houses are used by one of the most impressive modern astrologers I have met called Frank Clifford. Frank runs the London School of Astrology with others.


As a past student of this school this is likely where I get my preference for equal signs. Though nowadays I sort of use them on my steam having been convinced of their usage from my own experience as well.

Nixx wrote:
I wonder if it might save time, space, RSI's and breath ......... if I was to pm you my intended posts and then you could summarise, clarify, even expand upon the alternative meanings projected into them, and post them as your own?


Your sarcasm aside, I'm just pointing out that the idea that Placidus "is the default system for the Psych crowd" is only particular to one instance/stream of the psych crowd. Campanus was more popular earlier in the last century, and today different psychological schools prefer different methods. It can depend what is meant by the psych crowd, you regularly seem to take a very specific and exclusive view of that denotes a psychological view to astrology but really the net is much wider than you appear to sometimes acknowledge.
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Mark
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Posted: Fri Mar 08, 2013 1:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Damon wrote:
Quote:
One reason I still use Placidus is the fact that my 3rd cusp is exactly on the degree of my only sibling ASC.
The IC is my mothers ASC. It may just be coincidence but...


I suspect that kind of highly subjective argument actually influences many astrologers choice of house system. Apart from our teachers or school of astrology you often hear people going on about how a different system cant be right as it changes their planets by house or house rulers. Some people seem to favour one system as it shifts all their planets into better houses!

This outlook ignores the fact that in ancient-medieval or Jyotish there are numerous additional techniques that give you further insights on such matters such as lots/parts, dwads, antiscion or divisional charts (vargas). There is also fixed stars and midpoints in modern astrology.

Mark
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Last edited by Mark on Fri Mar 08, 2013 4:30 pm; edited 1 time in total
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damon



Joined: 23 Sep 2012
Posts: 419

Posted: Fri Mar 08, 2013 2:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Unfortunately Arabic parts arent of much help since most astrologers only know how to use Part of fortune.
I noticed that the method for Part of mother is the same as for part of secret enemies. Does that mean our mothers are our hidden enemies?
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Atlantean



Joined: 14 Aug 2009
Posts: 396

Posted: Fri Mar 08, 2013 3:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hello Mark,

Quote:
Re: "It wasn't intended as a place to extensively set out your stall for your preferred house system as Atlantean has chosen to do."


There is no stall as I am not selling anything. I am speaking from my experience. I appreciate that everyone does not agree with me. I would be self-questioning in the extreme if they did!!!

Let me be quite clear and concise about WHY Topocentric... If one has a very accurately-timed chart and uses Topocentric houses, they will find that in Primary Directions (Kühr method), in Secondary Progressions, in Progressed Sidereal Solar Returns (and also in the CONVERSE of these systems) event-by-event pointers to the exact same intermediate cusps are found (to less than 0° 11' of arc). Anyone with a mathematical background or statistics-savvy will appreciate the multiple-lottery-win odds of all these systems all pointing to the same cusps by coincidence.

Quote:
Re: "We could all do that."


With massively varying degrees of success. Wink

You are right that you asked which house system we would like to see the posted charts in. My assumption was that you not only wanted to know which ones, but perhaps might appreciate WHY as well. ie. it's a forum thread not just a poll

If this discussion is more like a hostile witness on the witness stand where we can only answer definitively without any explanation or color, then perhaps that should be stated early on as well. "Which house system would you like to see? (one word answers please)"

Summarizing... I literally do not care what house system anyone (else) uses. You can make one up on the fly if it works for you. I am speaking only from my experience, which is that across-the-board Topocentric gives very tight, appropriate aspects in Primary Directions, Secondary Progressions, and Progressed Sidereal Solar Returns across entire lists of events.

Sorry, Mark, if somehow my elaboration is stealing from the original thrust of the thread. Please understand that when I see the poll question and see Topocentric not on the list, it is EQUIVOCAL to the following math question:

Which number would you rather answer "2 + 2 =" with?

a) 7

b) Infinity

c) Undefined

d) Equal houses Wink

In short, my answer ain't on the list, but it should be. Wink

Take care, Mark...and thanks for some food for thought...

James
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damon



Joined: 23 Sep 2012
Posts: 419

Posted: Fri Mar 08, 2013 3:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

From what I see Topocentric gives very similar charts to Placidus. It should be easy to test Atlantean ideas with progressions. i got good results with Primaries and Placidus anyway
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Atlantean



Joined: 14 Aug 2009
Posts: 396

Posted: Fri Mar 08, 2013 5:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hello Paul,

I must admit that I love your deeply reasoning style of discussion!

Quote:
Re: "Okay, I don't want to get into issues of empiricity..."


That sounds like when the defense attorney says to the judge, "can we discuss some of the more subjective elements of this case and not focus so much on the facts?"

Re: Level of complexity in calculating

I already agreed on that point that complexity doesn't have any connection with validity. I am an Occam's Razor type, so have no use for unnecessary complexity.

Quote:
Re: "The question of the houses may be as simple as asking "what are you using them for?" and that question may be surprisingly answered very differently amongst different astrologers."

Yes, and that indicates my personal bias, as my goal is reliable and very tight aspects among symbolically appropriate planets and cusps across entire event lists. I realize it is mathematically intensive and definitely not for everyone.

Quote:
Re: "If you're looking to see "sign for house" symbolism, you will not find it with topocentric houses."


???

Quote:
Re: "It can be a mistake to think we're all looking for the same thing when we use a house system or that there is only one 'right' way to do use them either."


As I said, I was sharing my experience. Whether someone adopts the methods is their (free) choice. I literally don't care. I wouldn't want someone telling me what to do either. That being said, I wish someone would have presented Topocentric to me much sooner! Wink

Quote:
Re: "You're assuming a priori what indicates a 'best performance'"


Absolutely, do I admit guilt. Reliable, tight aspects (to just minutes of arc) with astrologically correct symbolism that functions across the entire event list and is corroborated in Primary Directions, Secondary Progressions, and Progressed Sidereal Solar Returns (and their converses) is my goal. If it doesn't work correctly across all of these, the birthtime can not possibly be correct.

Quote:
Re: "...you're assuming that what you want from the houses is what everyone wants from them."


No, that would be my assumption, I think, if I were telling THEM to use Topocentric. I am merely expressing my experience with Topocentric. Don't assume that my enthusiasm of finding (finally) Topocentric is a blanket statement of what others should use. It isn't.

Quote:
Re: "I likewise do not believe that there's any evidence of this - and by evidence I mean the claims that one corresponds better to events in the native's life more than another."


Agreed...all evidence I have seen was anecdotal and the cases that I reviewed showed only one house system that gave the tightest average orb.

Quote:
Re: "...as being analogous to demanding that the 'true' way to measure a length of distance is in miles rather than kilometers..:"


This one I can't agree with, Paul, as if we measure a distance in miles and kilometers, they are basically equivalent. ie. 88 kilometers = 55 miles (approx.) Saturn in the 3rd House does not equal Saturn in the 2nd House. Saturn conjunct the 8th cusp (to 0° 3' arc) for death of Father does not equal Saturn conjunct the 8th cusp (to 1° 10' arc). Primary Directions only need 0° 11' in which to mature. Systems that induce larger orbs are by necessity less precise.

Take care

James
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Nixx



Joined: 10 Dec 2011
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Posted: Fri Mar 08, 2013 5:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Paul wrote:

Your sarcasm aside, I'm just pointing out that the idea that Placidus "is the default system for the Psych crowd" is only particular to one instance/stream of the psych crowd. Campanus was more popular earlier in the last century, and today different psychological schools prefer different methods. It can depend what is meant by the psych crowd, you regularly seem to take a very specific and exclusive view of that denotes a psychological view to astrology but really the net is much wider than you appear to sometimes acknowledge.



Every time I write Psych crowd I could insert a Para such as don’t confuse this Anima Mundi Kleinistic lens with the irreverent potions, notions or systems de maisons of the likes of Rudhyar, 'Huber' Tyl. Jones, Leo, Carter et al whose hymn sheets can often be antagonistic, oblivious or a priori rigor mortis to it - but a bit wordeeeeee methinks. Perhaps we need a sticky or some such herein? For an exorbitant fee I could muster a sentence or two through gritted gums.

The reality is at an AA shindig or some such most if not all will know what terrain is being covered were the subject to appear, but here in Skyscripty cyber space we have folks from over the pond, and a few early doorers who are not in this 30/40 plus in the main British even European demographic thus the occasional if not endemic befuddlements and hold on a minute fellaisms!
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Paul
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Posted: Fri Mar 08, 2013 7:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Atlantean wrote:

That sounds like when the defense attorney says to the judge, "can we discuss some of the more subjective elements of this case and not focus so much on the facts?"


Not really, more an acknowledgement that that isn't what Mark had in mind when he started this thread. I think this serves more as a general poll of what house systems are currently popular amongst skyscript posters rather than a definitive study into any truth claims of any house system in particular, or any empirical study of their success.

Quote:
Yes, and that indicates my personal bias, as my goal is reliable and very tight aspects among symbolically appropriate planets and cusps across entire event lists. I realize it is mathematically intensive and definitely not for everyone.


Right, I guess when I uses houses I'm not always looking for anything like that level of exactitude. Sometimes I just want to get a feel for the chart and I really think equal is very good at that, but this is probably because it is the house system I learned astrology with. I have seen astrologers render a lot of accurate information from equal as well.

Quote:

Quote:
Re: "If you're looking to see "sign for house" symbolism, you will not find it with topocentric houses."


???


Sorry, this may not have come across well, I just meant to clarify that non-quadrant house systems do "sign for house" symbolism well, something lost in topocentric (and all other quadrant based divisions). So if I wanted to examine a profection very quickly, casting the nativity in whole or equal lets me see quickly where the profection comes to and what planets may need to be handed over. Obviously if you don't use these methods then it won't matter. I was just trying to show that these house systems can demonstrate some other kinds of data very quickly for the user - though obviously not the kind you are looking for perhaps.

Quote:

No, that would be my assumption, I think, if I were telling THEM to use Topocentric.


My comment was meant in light of the suggestion of studying the houses empirically. In other you're assuming that what you want out of a house system is the same for others - ie, something which could be empirically tested using methods like primary directions (as per your previous post). My point was to reiterate the idea that why we use a house system may change for all of us and the idea of testing empirically for primary directions etc. wouldn't lend well to what everyone is looking for.

Quote:
This one I can't agree with, Paul, as if we measure a distance in miles and kilometers, they are basically equivalent. ie. 88 kilometers = 55 miles (approx.) Saturn in the 3rd House does not equal Saturn in the 2nd House. Saturn conjunct the 8th cusp (to 0° 3' arc) for death of Father does not equal Saturn conjunct the 8th cusp (to 1° 10' arc). Primary Directions only need 0° 11' in which to mature. Systems that induce larger orbs are by necessity less precise.


I accept that criticism, I had something very particular in mind so it was not a good general analogy to use.


Ultimately when it comes to house systems I take a live and let live approach. We all use our house systems for our own reasons. For some I have definitely seen what Damon suggested regarding choosing the house system that gives you the chart you think fits better for you. However in my experience things are seldom so simple and as Mark indicates, something the native believed was due to the planet in one house, may in fact be because of something else entirely. For that matter I've seen people do the same with zodiacs, and in both situations also seen it happening because they prefer what the chart might indicate about themselves. For example I've seen someone change a house system to put Venus in the first, because that means they're very fair and do the 'right thing' (apparently), and equally I've seen someone switch from Tropical to sidereal at the drop of a hat when they thought they could get Sagittarius rising because "capricorn rising means I"m boring". I sort of take those arguments with a pinch of salt of course, but it does show that we can be attached to our house systems for many reasons, not all of them astrologically sound. Similarly we see regularly that people use Regiomontanus for horary because "the ancients did it" even though they didn't. Or because "if it's good enough for Lilly and he was an expert, then it's good enough for me". I think we do things like that a lot. I still use Regiomontanus for horary for no better reason than that's the way I was shown.

I suspect that someone who believes in their house system conforming to empirical study would be greatly frustrated by those claims or that rationale. It's good to see what other people use though and sometimes just as good to ask "why do you use it".
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Mark
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Posted: Fri Mar 08, 2013 7:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Paul wrote:
Quote:
Not really, more an acknowledgement that that isn't what Mark had in mind when he started this thread. I think this serves more as a general poll of what house systems are currently popular amongst Skyscript posters rather than a definitive study into any truth claims of any house system in particular, or any empirical study of their success.


Exactly. I thought that was fairly obvious from my initial post. It clearly wasn't an invitation to debate the intrinsic merits of one house system vs all others. It was simply to take a straw poll of what house system people wanted to see charts displayed in.

As for not including Topocentric in the poll I already explained why it was removed in favour of Equal. The system only allows 6 options. If it was up to me I would have included Porphyry, Topocentric, and Krusinski too. Although judging by Equal's lack of popularity here maybe I should have left Topocentric up!

I would be happy to open a thread on Topocentric houses but not just as a showccase to advocate the system as I am sure Atlantean would like. The system has come in for very heavy criticism by a lot of mathematically inclined astrologers. I would be interested to see how its advocates handle such objections.

Mark
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Atlantean



Joined: 14 Aug 2009
Posts: 396

Posted: Sat Mar 09, 2013 1:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hello Mark,

Re: "Exactly. I thought that was fairly obvious from my initial post. It clearly wasn't an invitation to debate the intrinsic merits of one house system vs all others. It was simply to take a straw poll of what house system people wanted to see charts displayed in."

Okay, in light of that, let me change my answer. My answer to which house system would I like to see used for posted charts is "whichever one gives the tightest aspects to relevant house cusps at events across whole event lists." This seems much more wordy than just saying Topocentric...but, so be it. Razz

Re: "Although judging by Equal's lack of popularity here maybe I should have left Topocentric up!"

In light of this and the Mystery Chart B fiasco...let's just say you had a bad week and leave it at that. Wink (meant in humor)

Re: "I would be happy to open a thread on Topocentric houses but not just as a showccase to advocate the system as I am sure Atlantean would like."

Actually, Topocentric presented in isolation would not be my preferred method. It will look much, much better if it is compared to other systems. Try an experiment... take one photo of yourself standing alone and then take a picture of yourself surrounded by Peewee Herman, Nick Nolte, Lyle Lovett, and Steve Buscemi. You will definitely look better in the 2nd picture... Topocentric will look better surrounded by Placidus, Koch, Porphyry, Alcabitius, Regiomontanus, and Equal. Wink

Re: "The system has come in for very heavy criticism by a lot of mathematically inclined astrologers. I would be interested to see how its advocates handle such objections."

By showing it's functionality in actual astrological analysis through example, not by hanging on philosophical issues that quite frankly fall to the ground like a soiled hanky in a peep show booth by comparison. In other (less picturesque) words, most of the arguments have centered on the particular author's problem with the math or the reasoning... and NEVER with the actual utilization of the Topocentric House system. I have read much on this topic and it still comes across like Newtonian physics adherents rejection of Einstein's relativistic model based on their theories, rather than what is empirically observable.

In (still) other words...if others want to compare house systems and discuss the mathematics of the demonstrable astrology, I am all for it. If it's a chance for some Makransky-type to discuss why it can't work while the whole time never looking at the examples of it working flawlessly, then there is admittedly no interest as it serves no true purpose other than obfuscation and ego-building.

Want to compare some astrological examples with real astrology? I am all for it and would support it as best I can. Additionally, I think it could be important for SOME who would at the least be exposed to some other ideas...whether they later adopt them or not.

Besides, that comparison thread could be a centralized container for my radical annoyances and perceived arrogance, easily skipped over by those who don't care one way or another. Wink ...and for those who have a pet system that they really would rather not read while their system is put under such mathematical scrutiny.

Can we spend a moment to discuss just HOW this could come about? ie. some ground rules that we can all (basically) agree with in general, even if not specifically

Take care

James
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Nixx



Joined: 10 Dec 2011
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Posted: Sat Mar 09, 2013 3:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Regardless seems to me Mystery Charts ought to be posted in Whole and Placidus since these seem to be the divisions of choice amongst the Traddy and Moddy characters who either post here now or might do so in the future.
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james_m



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Posted: Sat Mar 09, 2013 5:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

change my vote from whole sign to equal.. i wanted a 50/50 combo plate but it wasn't an option.. i mentioned all this in my first comment, but alas people look more closely at the poll results and forget to consider the nuances to all this..
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lihin



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Location: Mount Kailash

Posted: Tue Mar 12, 2013 7:55 pm    Post subject: Focal point of topical place Reply with quote

Good evening,

A complexity of choice of a topical place system or systems apparently not yet discussed in this thread is the location of the focal or 'strongest' degree of each such place, often called "cusp" and assumed to be at the beginning.

There are, however, other options, ex. gr.:

1. focal point at the middle of the place, supported by the argument that each 'house' begins, increases, culminates and subsides in strength; one such system is called 'Vehlow' in central Europe but was and is also used by some Indian astrologers;

2. focal point at the degree of the Ascendant in 'whole sign houses' rather than at the beginning of each sign; this focal point coincides with the beginning of an 'equal house';

3. focal point at the beginning of each house but these beginnings set off by some degrees before the degree of the Ascendant, for example the so-called 'classical' house system, the logic of which might be enhanced by determining the set-off in right ascension.

It has surprised me that more than 60 % of replies here indicate whole sign houses. This might not be representative for astrologers worldwide.

Best regards,

lihin
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Atlantean



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Posted: Wed Mar 13, 2013 3:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hello lihin,

Re: "A complexity of choice of a topical place system or systems apparently not yet discussed in this thread is the location of the focal or 'strongest' degree of each such place, often called "cusp" and assumed to be at the beginning."

Good point. I think the strongest point in the house is the cusp (otherwise it wouldn't be so obviously responsive to direction and progression to just minutes of arc), but don't think that that point is the beginning of the house.

James
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Mark
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Posted: Thu Mar 14, 2013 7:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

As the thread has clearly evolved beyond my original focus ie getting feedback on the preferred house systems to display for Mystery charts I thought I might as well engage on some of the points raised here.

Atlantean wrote:
Quote:
I think the strongest point in the house is the cusp (otherwise it wouldn't be so obviously responsive to direction and progression to just minutes of arc), but don't think that that point is the beginning of the house.


I agree with that but I suspect our reasons are somewhat different. Would you mind setting out your explanation for the above statement?


Mark wrote:
Quote:
Re: "The system has come in for very heavy criticism by a lot of mathematically inclined astrologers. I would be interested to see how its advocates handle such objections."


Atlantean wrote:
Quote:
By showing it's functionality in actual astrological analysis through example, not by hanging on philosophical issues that quite frankly fall to the ground like a soiled hanky in a peep show booth by comparison. In other (less picturesque) words, most of the arguments have centered on the particular author's problem with the math or the reasoning... and NEVER with the actual utilization of the Topocentric House system. I have read much on this topic and it still comes across like Newtonian physics adherents rejection of Einstein's relativistic model based on their theories, rather than what is empirically observable.

Want to compare some astrological examples with real astrology? I am all for it and would support it as best I can. Additionally, I think it could be important for SOME who would at the least be exposed to some other ideas...whether they later adopt them or not.


Lots of astrologers think that a practical demonstration of their technique is proof that their system works beyond others. I dont think that necessarily 'proves' much definitively except that astrologers generally have conviction in the techniques they regularly work with. The fact that one approach can produce results doesn't exclude the possibility of totally different techniques working too.

Atlantean wrote:
Quote:
In (still) other words...if others want to compare house systems and discuss the mathematics of the demonstrable astrology, I am all for it.


I am certainly no mathematician. The very idea would generate hilarity amongst anyone that knows me.

However, I have noticed that a high proportion of mathematically inclined astrologers seem to have a strong objection to the Topocentric house system in a way you dont find being raised against other systems based on semi-arcs such as Placidus, Alcabitius or Koch. Why is this?

Here is an article by Michael Wackford challenging the mathematical soundness of Topocentric houses (which he contrasts unfavorably to Placidus semi-arcs)

http://skyscript.co.uk/pdf/TopocentricHouses.pdf

Wackford along with other astrologers like Cyril Fagan, Robert Hand, Neil Gillings, and Jose Lebron seem to feel the mathematical foundation of this house system is flawed.

I should say I am not taking sides in this debate. I lack the mathematical credentials to do so. However, I thought other members might find this interesting.

Mark
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‘’As thou conversest with the heavens, so instruct and inform thy minde according to the image of Divinity…’’ William Lilly


Last edited by Mark on Thu Mar 14, 2013 9:59 pm; edited 4 times in total
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