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astrotwins and profession
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james_m



Joined: 05 Dec 2011
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Posted: Thu Feb 28, 2013 11:53 pm    Post subject: astrotwins and profession Reply with quote

bobby richardson inner wheel, story musgrave outer wheel.. chart 1 - tropical.. chart 2 - sidereal/lahiri

perhaps someone would like to comment on the fact they were involved in different professions, in spite of the closeness of their charts? i suppose we will run into the same situation in real twins born close to one another..


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chart 2


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Mark
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Posted: Fri Mar 01, 2013 12:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I stumbled on a pair of astro twins in my research today. The charts are very close (just a few degrees separating the ASC). They were born on the same day but on different continents. Their destinies worked out quite similarly.

I will not say too much at this stage as I am planning to use one of the charts in a mystery chart exercise.

Mark
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Konrad



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Posted: Fri Mar 01, 2013 12:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I for sure want to look into this more tomorrow. Maybe the Sun being so close to the ASC is what burned away all of poor Story's hair!

The Sect Light is more angular in the baseballer's chart while the bodyguard is less so. That is interesting. I feel a little annoyed I missed out, in the mystery chart exercise, on Jupiter as lord of the 9th influencing the same bodyguard while being in partile square to the ASC of Richardson's chart. Most especially with Jupiter ruling the ASC by exlatation. I feel really annoyed I missed that now! It does fit my theory about the closest aspecting planet to the ASC being important for personal expression and character though.

Mercury is closer to the angle in the astronaut's chart (within the 15 degrees given by Dorotheus) and Mars/Mercury signifies surgeons anyway which he also did career-wise.

I also like to look at the Dodecatemoiria of the ASC and Story's is at 13 Cancer (Pauline, 13 sign version) which is closely overcome by the Moon in the 9th/10th. The Moon shows those of "many occupations". In Richardson's it is at 21 Aries, directly opposed by Mars and Jupiter, sport and religion. I am aware that the birth times not being wholly accurate could change the proximity of the aspects but being in the stakes is important. Saturn is alos more angular in Musgrave's chart and this probably means it effects Mercury more than in Richardson's although I think it would be almost impossible to be this precise without hvaing both charts and their bios in front of me.
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Mark
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Posted: Fri Mar 01, 2013 12:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi James,

The general issue of delineating charts that look very close (i.e same Asc) like this is interesting. Clearly different ascendants affect not only that degree itself but the key lots too.

In summary technical considerations that change in the two charts:

Different bound rulers on the ASC/MC +Lots
Different 1/12th division of a sign ie dodekatemorion for ASC/MC and Lots
Different fixed star connections to ASC/MC + Lots
Different planetary rulers of individual degrees (Monomoiria)

Of course its not just a technical astrological question. There are other factors like environment and the exercise of free will.

Note: The Musgrove chart is only rated A in the Rodden data base. If we are going to have such a discussion I think we ideally need AA data in both charts. I have found that for the time twins I looked at today.

Mark
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Last edited by Mark on Fri Mar 01, 2013 1:23 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Vasanth



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Posted: Fri Mar 01, 2013 1:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I agree with Mark. We would require very accurate charts to make this kind of comparison. AA charts may also be off by few minutes. It would require rectifications.
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james_m



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Posted: Fri Mar 01, 2013 4:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

mark

thanks for taking a look and offering your thoughts on this. i agree a AA rating is more ideal.. it is interesting as the rounded off time for richardson - 5am is the AA rating while the 537am time from musgrave is based on memory..

vasanth

i am not impressed with most of the rectification work i have seen.. this isn't to say it doesn't have some merit, just that i question most all of it.. in the desire to get a more accurate birth time, rejigging the chart to fit different events seems too easy to me.. polaris software claims it can do it but i am not a fan of that either! one of its proponents did a rectified birth chart for romney and said he would win.. not to pick on them, but i am skeptical of rectifications!

i don't disagree that it would be great to know beyond a shadow of a doubt the accuracy of a birth time, but i am going to stay in the middle somewhere and not commit to rectified charts by others..

midpoints to the angles are different for the 2 charts.. richardson has midheaven/ascendant = mars, which musgraves doesn't have.. on the other hand musgrave has sun/jupiter = ascendant which richardson doesn't share... midpoints involving the angles will take on greater relevance..

i just want to go back to the fact is no one on the mystery thread was looking at any of this.. everything that was said on that thread could have been said on musgraves chart as well.. maybe someone said something that really hinged on a 6 degree difference in the ascendant and a 4 degree difference on the midheaven axis, and yes, maybe musgraves chart is off, but i think this tells us that all the comments take on greater relativity when you see someone with a very similar chart that has expressed these planetary patterns we like to use in a more unique and varied way then we might like to consider.. that is really why i started this thread, as i was hoping for feedback just like marks which attempts to distinguish these minor differences..
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Morpheus



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Posted: Fri Mar 01, 2013 8:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Very strange. Both have two careers. Mr.Musgrave is a an astronaut as well as a doctor. I have searched too. There is another interesting person

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zahir_Raihan

I am not sure about time of birth but Zahir Rehan had two careers. His life seems to be very interesting.
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Mark
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Posted: Fri Mar 01, 2013 12:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

James-Wrote:
Quote:
i just want to go back to the fact is no one on the mystery thread was looking at any of this.. everything that was said on that thread could have been said on musgraves chart as well.. maybe someone said something that really hinged on a 6 degree difference in the ascendant and a 4 degree difference on the midheaven axis, and yes, maybe musgraves chart is off, but i think this tells us that all the comments take on greater relativity when you see someone with a very similar chart that has expressed these planetary patterns we like to use in a more unique and varied way then we might like to consider.. that is really why i started this thread, as i was hoping for feedback just like marks which attempts to distinguish these minor differences..


I want to repeat that I dont think we can have a serious discussion of the accuracy of delineations on supposed time twins here until someone offers us two AA rated charts. A rating could still be way out in reality.

That being said I dont expect two lives to unfold as carbon copies even with identical charts. Astrology is only a tool to help us understand our place in the cosmos. However, everyone has a different set of familial influences, educational opportunities and cultural conditioning. For example, someone in Texas is more likely to be exposed to conservative Christian values than someone in Oregon. We know that the western USA is the least religiously observant part of the country (excluding Utah).

But the issue is much bigger than that. I dont think the universe is quite as mechanistic as a lot of astrologers like to think it is. I dont want to get all metaphysical here but I am open to the idea of previous lives. I believe we all bring into this life a unique bundle of karmic energy. Hence while two charts may help to pick up a lot of similarities in two people's fate we shouldn't seek or expect to find their destiny unfolding in an identical manner.

The English astrologer Jeff Mayo used to call the unique element in each person 'The X factor'. He suggested this was not something we could ever pin down astrologically. Whether you call it soul, karma, daemon etc I think there is a dimension outside the horoscope that needs to be considered.

So beyond the chart we have to consider:

-Karma-Our inheritence from previous lives.
-Genetic factors that may influence our development/physique
-The family & wider culture one is born into
-how we exercise our free will.

These will all differ even with identical charts.

Astrology is very helpful at identifying how people might best use their abilities. It is also very good for timing events. However, we all need to adopt some humility to accept the limitations of horoscopic astrology.

Mark
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Last edited by Mark on Fri Mar 01, 2013 1:58 pm; edited 1 time in total
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pankajdubey



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Posted: Fri Mar 01, 2013 1:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If you accept that venus is the healer and mars is the sportsperson/army person.

Both charts have their professions explained.

Add:

Vaens gives physicians to mercury, actually just about anything that uses grey cells.

Venus is in fall with its dispositor mercury strong- so that is the healing bit.

There was a research articel by K.N Rao etc (jyotish-sidereal) where they found venus angular in majority of the present day Allopathic physicians or anyone associated with healing.
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Martin Gansten
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Posted: Fri Mar 01, 2013 1:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mark wrote:
I want to repeat that I dont think we can have a serious discussion of the accuracy of delineations on supposed time twins here until someone offers us two AA rated charts. A rating could still be way out in reality.

I agree, though I would extend that to include AA-rated charts with birth times like 5:00, at least from certain countries and/or epochs. After all, AA only means that the time is taken from an official document like a birth certificate or hospital record; it doesn't tell us how precise those records are. In some parts of Europe, judging from the cases I've seen, all natives seem to be born at 30-minute intervals. Smile

Quote:
The English astrologer Jeff Mayo used to call the unique element in each person 'The X factor'. He suggested this was not something we could ever pin down astrologically. Whether you call it soul, karma, daemon I think this is a dimension outside the horoscope that needs to be considered.

I find that philosophically interesting. In India, where the notion(s) of karma arose, astrology has always been viewed as a means of discovering the karma of a native (or, to be precise, that portion of karma which is to be lived out in the present life), rather than as an extraneous factor; and even things like genetic factors have typically been considered to be caused by karma. (A paper of mine on traditional and modern interpretations of karma and astrology is found here.) And wasn't the daemon considered in a similar light by many Hellenistic astrologers?
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Mark
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Posted: Fri Mar 01, 2013 6:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mark wrote:
Quote:
The English astrologer Jeff Mayo used to call the unique element in each person 'The X factor'. He suggested this was not something we could ever pin down astrologically. Whether you call it soul, karma, daemon I think this is a dimension outside the horoscope that needs to be considered.


Martin Gansten wrote:
Quote:
I find that philosophically interesting. In India, where the notion(s) of karma arose, astrology has always been viewed as a means of discovering the karma of a native (or, to be precise, that portion of karma which is to be lived out in the present life), rather than as an extraneous factor; and even things like genetic factors have typically been considered to be caused by karma. (A paper of mine on traditional and modern interpretations of karma and astrology is found here.)


Thanks for sharing your paper. Its provides excellent coverage on the topic. It really encapsulates the contrasting philosophical attitudes of Indian, medieval Christian and Theosophy towards astrology. I think your thesis is solid. The notion of Karma offering a middle ground between freewill and determinism is, as you point out, very compatible with an astrological world view.

I need to clarify I was offering a personal explanation of two time twins charts which would be technically identical.

I dont deny the horoscope can be reflective of personal karma. However, can it be all inclusive?

Surely not. The example of time twins seems to highlight the issue. Say we have someone in South America and another in Africa with identical charts. We might well expect to see some things play out with an identical configuration. However, the religious, economic, linguistic, cultural and genetic context are not the same.

There seems to various takes on this.

-The whole chart reveals our Karma in its totality (Hindu?).

While I am sure Hindu astrologers all propose this I suspect it has its critics amongst some Hindu spiritual teachers. Many Hindu scriptures present astrology as a quite disreputable art.

-One part of the chart reveals our Karma e.g. Nodes (Theosophy)

I basically propose a third outlook which I derive mostly from a Buddhist perspective. This accepts the validity of the horoscope as a tool to reflect Karma we bring into this incarnation.

However, from a Buddhist perspective the following points limit the ability of astrology to reveal our individual destiny.

-Individual karmic antecedents are not identical even if charts are.

-Different kinds of Karma-affecting rebirth type. In other words certain kinds of actions have stronger karmic effects and immediecy of result. This can lead to some degree of randomness of rebirth outcome.

-Other natural laws that operate separate from karma. For example in ancient Buddhist philosophy meteorology and the laws of heredity are amongst several additional factors to consider beyond Karma.

-Collective destiny or karma. Astrologers like Ptolemy or Ibn Ezra make the point that collective human destiny will always override individual destiny. Individual charts dont show this. This introduces the idea of astrological hierarchy.

This all looks like philosophy forum material to me. Maybe we should move discussion over there?

Martin Gansten wrote:
Quote:
And wasn't the daemon considered in a similar light by many Hellenistic astrologers?


Well as you know the daemon wasn't exactly synonymous with the soul or karma. At best it seems more like a spiritual guide or the medieval guardian angel.

Hellenistic astrologers like Porphyry (who believed in reincarnation and advocated vegetarianism) do seem to have believed that our personal daimon could be identified from horoscopic astrology. However, like astrologers today there were lots of disagreements. In particular where the daimon could be identified while others rejected the whole idea.

Quote:
...you seem to me to be cutting off just a small portion of the whole question concerning the daimon. For whereas those experts who operate within the bounds of nature are accustomed to give it its designation in due order on the basis of the decans and the ‘servitors’, the zodiacal signs and the stars, the sun and the moon, from the Greater and Lesser Bear, and from all the elements and the cosmos as a whole, you are making the error of detaching one small part of this, that of the ‘master of the house’, and have concentrated all your enquiries on that.
- Letter to Anebo, 14b (ed. Sodano) [= De Mysteriis IX.2, 273.10-274.3], trans. Clarke/Dillon/Hershbell, Iamblichus On the Mysteries, Atlanta 2003


In contrast Iamblichus who was a pupil of Porphyry strongly criticised the idea that the daimon could be understood through astrology. Instead he believed that the personal daimon was only accessible through experiential spirituality. He had little time for what he saw as the arid intellectualism of Porphyry.

Mark
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james_m



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Posted: Fri Mar 01, 2013 9:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

i am only a few pages into martins article, but want to thank martin for sharing it. thanks! i will read it over in the next 2 days. i just finished reading chris brennans article posted in the news section.. he mentions the idea of soul/spirit as to do with the upper hemisphere, while the body as connecting with the lower half... see the last part of his article - 26 page area for more on this.. the article is quite good and most here will enjoy it.
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Tom
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Posted: Sat Mar 02, 2013 1:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Why print Books should always be with us:

According to my copy of The American Atlas, which lists time zones and change dates for every city and town in the USA, Sumter SC was on EST in 1935. In fact all of South Carolina followed the same time.

From Oct 26 1919 until Feb 9 1942, the entire state of South Carolina was on Eastern Standard Time. Richardson's data as presented is correct.

Massachusetts was on EDT on the same date.
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SGFoxe



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Posted: Sun Mar 03, 2013 2:47 am    Post subject: AstroTwins Reply with quote

My favorites are: Al Capone born about 12 hours before Robert Maynard Hutchins (5th pres of the University of Chicago) January 17, 1899, both in Brooklyn about 4 miles apart, the differences obvious the parallels astounding

William Reinquest and Jimmy Carter, October 1, 1926, about 4 hours apart

Barbra Streisand 21 minutes older that Richard M. Daley

Catherine Deneuve and Tariq Ali, time for both unknown ...

and there's always Charles Darwin and Abraham Lincoln and Herod the ?? and Claudius (as delineated by Robert Graves)
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Mark
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Posted: Sun Mar 03, 2013 5:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

SG Foxe
Quote:
My favorites are: Al Capone born about 12 hours before Robert Maynard Hutchins (5th pres of the University of Chicago) January 17, 1899, both in Brooklyn about 4 miles apart, the differences obvious the parallels astounding

William Reinquest and Jimmy Carter, October 1, 1926, about 4 hours apart

Barbra Streisand 21 minutes older that Richard M. Daley

Catherine Deneuve and Tariq Ali, time for both unknown ...

and there's always Charles Darwin and Abraham Lincoln and Herod the ?? and Claudius (as delineated by Robert Graves)


The key issue we are looking at here is having very similar charts (especially rising degrees close to each other) not being born close in time to each other. If people are born thousands of miles apart at the same time this means very little. Several of the charts you mention have no verified time (Lincoln, Catherine Deneuve and Tariq Ali) while others all have different rising signs. For example, Jimmy Carter/William Reinquest and Barbara Streisand/Richard M. Daley have different rising signs. I haven't seen a chart for Robert Maynard Hutchins but the data for Al Capone is only DD so I am afraid none of your examples take us forward that much. However, I do know other astrologers would still count these people as time twins so I guess this may have a wider interest.

Mark
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