76
Mark,

I have recently started incorporating Firdaria in analysis. Reading biographies and comparing firdaria seems to work quite well. I am still trying to understand it better. Also sub-periods seems to work quite well.
Maybe I will try to post some example when possible.

Dr.H uses firdaria consistently in rectification to wipe out around 50% of possible times for person with unknown birth time.
So your point is that charts at dawn/dusk may actually work better in the diurnal sect? Unless you accept the importance of the time of sunrise and sunset you end up in a confusing position regarding using sect at all.
Maybe firdaria sequence could be used to determine the exact sect of the chart when the Sun is close to the horizon, that is the point I am considering. No concrete evidence as of now. Need more study!

Vasanth

77
As a post-factum, I would like to add something which I find interesting concerning this chart, looking at it now after we know his full biography.

Not only that Mars is angular, in good zodiacal shape and makes an aspects, or looks upon the MC, but here with Jupiter he almost fulfills a so called condition of "neighboring". Neighboring is a concept introduced by Antiochus (I think) and according to Robert Schmidt, it is an intensification factor.

The definition is restricted to a bodily conjunction of two planets inside 3 portions (degrees), or the so called "adherence" and also in figural-conjunction, or joining in figure (application) inside, also, 3 portions. The main thing in this definition is that both planets need to be in confine (term) ruled by same planet.

Now, we do not have here 3 portions exact or less between Mars and Jupiter, but we have 3 portions and some, so less then 4 in the confine of Mercury. In the same time, Mercury is applying toward Mars inside of 7 and some portions (these 7 portions are mentioned on other place by Antiochus) again from its own terms.
The definition is not applied in exact manner here, but it just popped out in my mind, that it could work in some mitigated fashion or with "less intensity" especially in the case of Mars and Jupiter since they are very close?!

In any case, I just wanted to mention it as a factor which would probably add to the sports inclinations of this man alongside the angularity of Mars, the star of Mars' nature rising with ascendant, and dexterity which Mercury symbolizes and is part of baseball skills, as Tom already mentioned.

78
Ile,

i was thinking later how conjunctions can push a chart in a particular direction as they give greater weight to the area of the chart where they are..i tend to think this way automatically, but it is good to be conscious of it too.. maybe it becomes greater if the conjunction is found in the bounds or a particular planet, but i figure it strengthens that area regardless of whether they are in the bounds of the same planet or not.. actually it is only been in the last couple of years that i was even aware of bounds and terms of planets.. it is another quagmire with plenty of choices to pull from.. anyway, i think that is the simple ''intensification'' factor for me, but this neighboring concept sounds interesting with the magical number 3..

mark

thanks for saying all that! yes, that was part of my thrust, but not all of it.. it is the 'traditional sandbox' and i haven't wanted to kick up any sand intentionally. i do believe there is room for everyone, but i am more inclusive and see how astrologers all have something in common, regardless of the style of astrology they practice..

79
Hi Tom,

My interpretation (Tropical -Whole Sign) that he is interested in Occult was from the strength and positive (good) manifestation of Saturn.

Positive activation of 8th house indicates interest in Occult (Astrology, Palmistry, Numerology etc), Occult powers (healing powers). So, in my haste, Seeing the strength of Mercury I combined them to assume as if he was a man of learning (Some sort of scientist) and the interest of man of learning should be in exo-biology (but no David Icke sort of person). So I made error of application but I have no doubt that this person possesses 'Occult powers'. :)

The mistake that I have made is in ignoring the strength of Jupiter and 9th house, which are there in the chart, indicating healthy interest in spirituality. But since, I come from the culture, where people adopt the professions not from the choice but on the promptings of elders so strong Jupiter (9th house etc) indicates interest in spirituality/religion. People here are thought to take interest in religion and good Jupiter and 9th house gives a healthy interest in any organized religion or sect.

As everybody else I did notice strong Mars, and took it as signature of a doctor (but a good doctor).

Mars angular, in own house, conjunct Jupiter. So, there was another mistake of application.

Now, I am sure that astrology best works in two way consultancy. If this person had been my client he would have corrected me that he is not a doctor and his interest in Occult is only related to his healthy belief in mystical powers of prayers.
Regards

Morpheus

https://horusastropalmist.wordpress.com/

80
Tom wrote:
drawing on symbolism from the shape of the constellation Libra in a tropical (nothing to do with the constellations any more) delineation of a chart with no major or visible factors in tropical Libra.
Sorry but I don't think the shape of the constellation Libra looks anything like a scale. I didn't mention the constellation - only the symbolism of the sign Libra. Antiscia isn't visible either neither is the MC or any house cusps. Maybe we shouldn't use those.

If you wish to practice sidereal astrology fine. Go and do it. But if you want to lobby on its behalf, take it elsewhere.

From this point on sidereal astrology stays in the sidereal Forum. That clarifies things and solves any potential problems.
That's what I thought you thought, and that's why I posted on the sidereal forum and simply indicated here that I'd posted there.
Then you took the trouble to look up the sidereal chart in order to say (in this forum)
In Western astrology Mars in this chart is essentially strong (in domicile) and accidentally strong (angular). I applied western rules to a sidereal chart mostly as a curiosity. But in that case Mars switches to essentially weak while maintaining accidental strength. IF that doesn't work out the same way in Indian astrology, so be it. For this reason we need to be clear where we are coming from so that readers understand what writers mean
I don't do sidereal. I have nothing against it, but I have enough going on without adding a zodiac. I have to point out something in this chart though comparing the two zodiacs.
In the tropical, Mars is in Domicile opposite the MC which is in his detriment. Mars is very strong. In the sidereal, the MC is in Aries ruled by Mars posited in his detriment. Mars is very weak.
Let's see how this plays out when we discuss who he is.
You raised that, not me, and it sounds like lobbying on behalf of tropical to me, espectially as you posted the chart and had already decided that mars was strong (as you later confirm with the results). I then responded with this (no more, no less, no lobbying):
Tom
I'd noticed that Mars was in detriment, but as I learnt my first astrology Indian-style, detriment is not recognised. Maybe it should be. But my point about Mars on the sidereal forum is that it's angular, an accidental benefic for Cancer ascendant generally by ruling a WS trine and and an angle (as it does for Leo too), and especially in this chart where it is in a particularly strong and benefic combination (placed in an angle, fully aspecting H10 which it rules, and also 11, job earnings, and 7). And Saturn, Jupiter, NN and Mercury also aspect 10 - lots of "influences".
I think I'm right that for some astrologers (maybe Richard Houck, if I remember, or maybe it's an Indian thing) the power of the aspect can be quite different from the celestial state of the planet, and terrestrial placement can also over-ride celestial.
Graham
That point about Mars being benefic because ruling a trine and a square (WSH) is equally valid tropically, so I didn't think it was out of place here, as the idea of terrestrial state perhaps taking precedecne over celestial (that's in Morin, if I remember right).
You then posted:
What I don't know about Indian astrology would fill libraries. In Western astrology Mars in this chart is essentially strong (in domicile) and accidentally strong (angular). I applied western rules to a sidereal chart mostly as a curiosity. But in that case Mars switches to essentially weak while maintaining accidental strength. IF that doesn't work out the same way in Indian astrology, so be it. For this reason we need to be clear where we are coming from so that readers understand what writers mean
Which is exactly what I'd done.
And you went on:
I don't do sidereal. I have nothing against it, but I have enough going on without adding a zodiac. I have to point out something in this chart though comparing the two zodiacs.
In the tropical, Mars is in Domicile opposite the MC which is in his detriment. Mars is very strong. In the sidereal, the MC is in Aries ruled by Mars posited in his detriment. Mars is very weak.
Let's see how this plays out when we discuss who he is.
Then in your last post you say
Even if one side is trying to learn the other it becomes difficult to reconcile exactly what is going on when one side has Mars in domicile and the other in detriment in the same chart.
That's exactly why I hadn't mentioned it here - but you did. I noticed that others (working tropically) thought detriment was at best only a minor affliction, so I don't think it can be a clincher for this chart anyway.
Secondly, and this will rankle some, it is all too common for siderealists to use public opportunities to promote their system over the tropical. The mystery chart threads are, as stated above are for practical application, not advocacy. Since it is a small number of astrologers who use the sidereal zodiac the prospect of a captive audience might be too great a temptation to resist. We have a sidereal forum; use it.
Well it did rankle me because I wasn't "using public opportunities to promote their system" (at least, not in this thread), but it looks to me like you were. And "a small number of astrologers use the sidereal zodiac": well, if you include Indian they might even be a bigger number than those who use tropical (I realise you must not be including them, although the fundamentals of their system are basically the same as Western traditonal, espectially Hellentistic, and can help us understand how some lost classical and traditional techniques may have been used).

But anyway, your proposed compromise is what I was doing anyway, so that's fine. But given your position, and to avoid misuderstanding, I think you should rename this forum "Traditional Tropical Astrology". Because sidereal astrologers consider themselves traditinal as well. As Martin said in the parallel thread on this mystery chart in the sidereal forum:
the dignities as such antedate the historical use of the tropical zodiac as commonly understood (i.e., the zodiac equating 0 Aries with the vernal equinox), and the Persians certainly seem to have used them with a sidereal zodiac, as did (and do) Indian Tajika astrologers, to whom these dignities are known as the pa?ca-varga or 'group of five'.
Of course, the Indians and Persians were hardly 'western' in any meaningful sense of the term; but then again, arguably, nor were the Hellenistic Egyptians or the medieval Arabic authors on whom almost all traditional astrology outside of India rests.
And I don't think the constellation Libra looks like a pair of scales either, but someone must have somewhere down the line, which is why it was got called The Scales, which was why the sign got its name, which is why it became associated by some with balance and justice, as it is I think in modern Sun sign astrology. I was not of course suggesting that we shouldn't use invisible factors (I said "major OR visible"), and I was wrong to imply that a calculated lot might not be valid just because it's currently little known. But I was disappointed that, having gone to the trouble to check out the sidereal chart to try to show that it wasn't as valid as the tropical one because it had Mars in Libra, you didn't also (however briefly) acknowledge this when drawing parallels between Libra and baseball.

Graham
Last edited by Graham F on Fri Mar 01, 2013 8:20 am, edited 8 times in total.

81
If a president calls some on to 'White House', Is it considered prestigious? Because if it is considered prestigious then it did happen when Saturn was transiting the sign of Taurus (it would give me some comfort that I am correct in identifying one event ). :)
Regards

Morpheus

https://horusastropalmist.wordpress.com/

82
Horatio: The White House is the residence of the President of the US. An invitation to the White House is considered prestigious.

Graham: I wasn't referring to you, but to long past experience with others. Your last post is a good example of why I think it is necessary to keep things separate.

83
His soft spoken ways might be due to Mars in Libra in sideral,lord of 10th where the ASC lord is in Aries,the sports sign.
This chart also fits siderally,which is puzzling. Either we are fooling ourselves or maybe more than one system works

84
This chart also fits siderally,which is puzzling. Either we are fooling ourselves or maybe more than one system works
Why shouldn't both methods give the same result? I am sure I saw another post that said different systems should give different results which is bizarre as one native has only one fate.

I hesitate to prolong the Sidereal versus traditional debate. If the two systems came up with two interpretations one might be more accurate and one might be completely wrong but it would be difficult to prove that this was due to the efficacy of the methods. It might just be better judgement by one astrologer.

My thumb is an inch wide.
My thumb is 2.55 cm wide.
It is the same size

Matt

85
Mjacob wrote:

Why shouldn't both methods give the same result? I am sure I saw another post that said different systems should give different results which is bizarre as one native has only one fate.
Having seen many charts over the years interpreted by folks who favour alternative Zodiacs I don't recall much sameness of the person arising from them. You don't see much of this either with folks who employ different house systems, aims and objectives, schemas, language and thinking..etc.

Again 'Under one Sky' demonstrated this, or Sybil as I like to call it. 12 Astrologers involved with little common ground, 11 are (mostly) deluded or all 12 are, you decide ?

86
Damon wrote:
This chart also fits siderally,which is puzzling. Either we are fooling ourselves or maybe more than one system works
In the past you have applied the sidereal zodiac here too so I am unclear why you suddenly find it working for you 'puzzling'. There is only a dilemma here if you have a world view where one zodiac (or house system or sign rulership system) can actually work.


Nixx wrote:
Again 'Under one Sky' demonstrated this, or Sybil as I like to call it. 12 Astrologers involved with little common ground, 11 are (mostly) deluded or all 12 are, you decide ?
It was only one exercise doing this. So I dont think its enough to draw any definitive conclusions. It is a shame it hasn't been attempted again though. Of course the skill, experience and talent of a particular astrologer is more important than any technique being applied. For example, in the book Robert Schmidt was selected for hellenistic astrology. While he is undeniably a major translator and theorist on the topic I am not clear how much experience he had to offer as a consulting astrologer at that time.

Mark
As thou conversest with the heavens, so instruct and inform thy minde according to the image of Divinity William Lilly

87
Mark wrote:

It was only one exercise doing this. So I dont think its enough to draw any definitive conclusions. It is a shame it hasn't been attempted again though. Of course the skill, experience and talent of a particular astrologer is more important than any technique being applied. For example, in the book Robert Schmidt was selected for hellenistic astrology. While he is undeniably a major translator and theorist on the topic I am not clear how much experience he had to offer as a consulting astrologer at that time.

Mark
Although my post suggested I was factoring in others, a forensic examination of the Skyscript Mysteries over the years might provide a similar narrative.

Schmidt effectively opted out in UOS . Although for me at the time one of the more interesting, even if more conceptual, reads therein. I mention this one often as it appears a lot of folks, including here, are up de Nile about the implications subsumed by ??dissonance reduction''.

There are folks around like Bowser or Frawley who have made it clearer that if what they are doing has value then t?others horoscopy is akin to the village in search of its idiot. Common sense and not a remarkable amount of Critical Thinking skills needed to arrive on this terra firma.