It seems that in general horary astrology (to which I am a newcomer!) works best with closed (yes/no) questions. Charts for open-ended questions (i.e. who, what, where, why etc) appear more difficult to interpret. (Especially where mystery surrounds the subject matter of the question - as I later discovered).

I was faced with a situation where i really needed to ask an open-ended question about a "mystery caller." A few weeks ago I received a message on my mobile phone from a woman who gave her name as "M.D." I did not know this name. She left me a mobile number to call. Upon calling her she told me that she wished to meet me. But she would not say why, or who she was, or how she knew me. She DID say she had got my number from the Law Society (I am a barrister).

Naturally I thought she was someone wanting legal advice. But no! On the other hand she said she wanted to help me! She said she had something to tell me that affected me in a professional capacity but which was extremely private and confidential and she would have to see me in person to tell me. She said she could not tell me over the phone.

Ultimately I declined her invitation to meet, having decided that this is not the way I like to do business. I insisted that she must tell me more about the purpose of the meeting. She refused.

Some investigations revealed that her real name is "L.W." She lives in a country town many miles away. I do not know her.

Yesterday, I cast a horary for the question: "Why did L.W. want to meet me?" The Chart has 26 degrees Leo rising; MC at 10 degrees Gemini. (This is a Southern Hemisphere chart).

I was immediately alarmed by the fact that her significator (Saturn) is EXACTLY on the cusp of the 12th House - a secret enemy? (I got the distinct feeling that she was up to no good - she was very shady and shifty).

However I have trouble gleaning much more information from the chart. There is a cluster of planets at the IC and in the 4th House. I note that when the chart is turned, my significator (the Sun) is in her 11th House. Does that mean, to her, I am a friend or acquaintance? How ought I to work out how she knows me, or the thing that connects me to her (or her to me)!!??

Any thoughts are much appreciated! I could not phrase an appropriate yes/no question. I felt I really needed to ask an open-ended one i.e. why did she call? what did she want?

A few more points. Saturn is in detriment in the 12th and unaspected (except for a square to the North Node). I wonder if this is relevant to her lack of power to affect me and my affairs. But, on the other hand, the dispositor of Saturn is the Moon, which squares my significator from the Second House (Moon at 9 degrees Libra; Sun at 13 degrees Capricorn).

Furthermore, my dispositor is Saturn (her significator!) Does that mean I have power over her or vice versa? (I was able to find out some things about her without too much trouble). But then she obviously knows me and things about me - and I don't know how or why!

Her other significator is Uranus, being in the 7th House. (Uranus is afflicted by Mars in separating square from the IC). This could simply describe the fact that she (and her call) represent a sudden, strange and unwelcome intrusion into my life.

Well the unfortunate thing is that the overtones of her voice (and the call) were decidedly sinister....which kind of did away with any kind of romantic thoughts!! (at least on my part)....she is certainly a lot older than me too.

Anyway, the data is: 23:01 pm (NZST) Auckland, New Zealand. If you're doing the chart manually, remember to take into account NZ Daylight Saving (+ 1 hour to GMT).

Sorry, the date!!. 3 January 2005.

She said she had something to tell me that affected me in a professional capacity but which was extremely private and confidential and she would have to see me in person to tell me. She said she could not tell me over the phone.

I'm having a tough time determining her significator. You took her to be the ruler of the 7th (any old person), but she isn't someone who just walked up to you on the street. She sought you, and said she had information for you that affected your profession, yet she didn't know how to reach you directly so she called the law society. Well how could she have knowledge relating to your profession, and still not know how to contact you? The only answer I can come up with for that scenario is she knows something about your past (assuming she isn't making the whole thing up and has other things on her mind and your career was used as a hook to interest you), or someone in your past. My point is that my inclination is to view her as signified by the 12th house. Deb writes of the 12th this way:

The 12th represents matters that are hidden, restrained secret, incapableof action, or being fully understood.

The whole matter then is a 12th house signification. Cancer is on the 12th. The Moon rules her or the issue at hand. Having Saturn in the 12th, retrograde and in detrimient is certainly important, but I don't think it is her. Notice the Moon is in partile trine to the MC, your career,. I would place the Moon in the 2nd house indicating the issue has to do with your money. I think we should keep in mind that the Moon is in the exaltation of Saturn, and whatever she had to tell you is related to Saturn in this chart, either a spouse, ex-spouse, partner or ex-partner, opponent or rival, or perhaps someone you've hired to do something. (6th house).

She wanted to tell you something. this is third house and Mars is the ruler of the third and is posited in the 4th. Mars also opposes Saturn by antiscion, this is more reason to beleive she was about to divulge a secret regarding Saturn.

Saturn is "ruled" by the Moon, so she has a close relationship with whomever Saturn happens to be. The Moon is in Saturn's exaltation, so Saturn knows her, too. The Moon's last aspect was to Saturn and her next aspect is to Jupiter. Jupiter is in mutual reception with Venus ruler of the 9th and 2nd. That may make sense to you. It's worth thinking about.

So she did have something to say about your career, or something related to your career. It is a secret and it concerns Saturn who may be a partner, ex-partner, or opponent in some way. She may have wanted money in exchange for it (Jupiter - Venus mutual reception; Venus disposits the Moon) How valuable is the information? Well, if Mars is the information, and Mars is peregrine, it probably isn't worth that much or it may not even be true.

It is noteworthy that your MC is conjunct the Royal fixed star Aldebaran, which, according to Robson, gives "Honors, preferment, good fortune, and favors from women." Perhaps she was trying to do you a favor, or thought she was.

This is about all I can make out with the information provided. With so much clandestine activity, it's difficult to come up with a iron clad answer. I hope this helps.

Tom

Yes it does help. You raise a number of interesting points.

It is interesting that we both ended up in the 12th House but by different routes. I took her to be the "other," the quesited, the person I am asking about, therefore covered by the 7th House. 7th House ruler is Saturn, which is exactly on the cusp of the 12th House.

However, I think you are right to point out that although she is the person I am asking about, I don't know who she is. I'm not asking "Why did Jane want to see me?" where I happen to know who Jane is. This is a mystery woman who has chosen to use a pseudonym. So I think I tend to agree with your analysis that this is a 12th house matter. In which case I am still looking at the 12th House, but under your analysis the Moon is the significator, not Saturn.

(Whereas under my analysis, the Moon is merely the dispositor of the Significator).

Which rather begs the question, if the Moon is her significator, what (or who) is Saturn? I have thought about all of your suggestions but it is still a mystery to me. I would have thought the most logical thing would be to look at the 6th House (Saturn ruling the 6th) but that doesn't take me much further. Except to say maybe Saturn relates to some job I did for someone, or provided some service for, in the past.

But then of course Saturn also rules the 7th...so now I see where you are coming from with business partners, ex-partners, etc. But this would be someone known to me right? 7th House surely covers people who I have known on a one-to-one basis. So the connecting link is a PERSON, who both she knows, and I know!! Ah-hah, I think we're getting somewhere.

I agree that the 2nd House Moon must relate her to my finances, my money. This placement must be important. She must be somehow concerned with what I have or own. But why I still have no idea!

Aldebaran on the MC however relates to something very precise:
she was constantly saying "but it's to help you," "but I'm doing this for you!" This obviously connects to the Star's meaning "favors from women etc" She clearly felt she was doing me a favour.

Uncanny!

Uncanny!

I first came across serious horary astrology in the pages of Deb Houlding's Traditional Astrologer magazine and John Frawley's Astrologer's Apprentice. I remember reading an article in the Apprentice where John wrote about an attempt to find a classic guitar for a client using horary astrology. Combining the rules of horary and a native's knowledge of London, they found what the client was looking for in precisely the condition (and color) described by the chart. It even described the salesman! (Issue No. 14)

When it's done right, and I'm talking about those with skill levels higher than my own, horary is captivating, even compulsive. It's a shame more people don't devote the time to learning it.

Which rather begs the question, if the Moon is her significator, what (or who) is Saturn? I have thought about all of your suggestions but it is still a mystery to me. I would have thought the most logical thing would be to look at the 6th House (Saturn ruling the 6th) but that doesn't take me much further. Except to say maybe Saturn relates to some job I did for someone, or provided some service for, in the past.

The traditional meaning of 6 is servants. The 6th from the ASC represents your servants. The sixth might not be a job you did (a modern interpretation) but rather someone you hired to do a job for you. A more sinister possibility is presented by the Hellenistic delineation of the 6th house: enemies and their plots. Paulus says it is the house of "retribution."

I can only throw out hints or possibilities. It is, after all, a 12th house matter, and horary doesn't come up against them too often. Lost elephants anyone? You may never find out, and I could be way, way off and we're following a lead to nowhere. If it were me, I'd suspect my ex-wife., but maybe you don't have one of those.

Jupiter rules 4, the end of the matter, and Jupiter is in mutual reception with Venus. That might be a clue. In any event, good luck, and if you discover something, please let us know.

Tom

Tom wrote:

Saturn is "ruled" by the Moon, so she has a close relationship with whomever Saturn happens to be. The Moon is in Saturn's exaltation, so Saturn knows her, too. The Moon's last aspect was to Saturn and her next aspect is to Jupiter. Jupiter is in mutual reception with Venus ruler of the 9th and 2nd. That may make sense to you. It's worth thinking about.

The Moon's next aspect is to the Sun. I goofed. So Moon (our mystery woman?) translates light from Saturn (the mystery or person or item she wished to discuss) to you Sun ruler of the ASC. I still think the Jupiter - Veus mutual reception is important -- somehow


Tom

Well to my utter amazement, I now know who the mystery woman is.!!(Mystery still surrounds why she wanted to meet me however).

It was the horary chart itself that gave me a clue about who to ask. The emphasis of planets in the 4th House got me thinking that the answer might lie close to home. None of the significators are in the 4th House however, so I wasn't really following the traditional rules. It was more my astrologer's intution being "triggered" by seeing all those 4th House planets.

(I am a young unmarried male so for me "family" means Mum, Dad, my brother and sister. "Home" means the family farm where I grew up, and where my parents and my brother still live). My brother works for my parents part-time in their business, and runs hs own business the rest of the time.

I realised that I hadn't asked my brother If he knew a "LW". So I did. And he said "yes." !! (Now there is I think a pretty obvious symbol of this in the chart. Mars rules the 3rd House of siblings, and is placed right on the 4th House cusp! Literally, "the male sibling who lives at home.")! Not only that, but he has just moved into my home - he is staying at my place on and off over the holiday period - this was the first chance I had to ask him face-to-face.

Anyway, this woman was a customer of my parent's business. There were some disgruntled customers of that business who were planning to sue. So to keep her on-side and stop her joining the "baddies" my brother was "extra-nice" to her. This back-fired in the sense that when she broke up with her husband she became fixated on him. "Obsessed" is another word. (My brother described her as "completely mad.)" Things escalated to a point where he served a trespass notice on her. Which she tried to challenge through her lawyer. She then tried to get my brother to pay half her legal bill.!! He wrote back saying that he considered this harassment and that she was not to contact him anymore, or he would contact the police.

It was shortly after that, that she must have phoned me under the false name "MD" and tried to arrange a meeting with me. What she hoped to achieve by that meeting is anybody's guess, but I do believe she wanted to tell me some "secret" about my brother (and then possibly use this situation to extort something??) Who knows! It's a pretty weird situation.

I'm going to go back and have another look at the chart, but the 4th House was obviously very important. (I suppose it is also relevant that I asked "Why did LW want to meet with me?", not "Who is LW?")

This is a really interesting chart. I just looked at the chart in detail now, after you revealed the solution to the situation, so what I say has the benefit of twenty-twenty hindsight. I did glance at the topic earlier and had wondered if this mystery person should be signified by the 12th house. That seems clear now, but everything looks clearer when you know more of the full story.

Here?s a bit of advice that I try to follow. When the idea comes to you to do a chart, before you note the time down, try to figure out what roles the significators play and thereby what houses signify them. For example, if you have had a huge fight with a friend, perhaps to the point of the friend maybe becoming an enemy of yours, try to figure if you still see the person as a friend who you want to reconcile with, or an enemy who you have to be wary of. Once it?s clear to you that this is still a friendship, and thereby an 11th house question, then note the time down and do the chart. We?ve seen questions on this forum where a person is friends with their boss at work and have been confused whether to signify that person by the 10th or 11th house. The goal here is not to pick the houses first, but to be clear about what roles these persons play in your life. The choice of which house to use flows out of that understanding.

Back to your chart. If this mystery person is the 12th house, then she is the Moon. You were very right about the emphasis on the 4th house and I don?t think this was incorrect at all of you to look down that avenue. I always say to start with what you do know and work from there to what you don?t know. You knew the chart pointed to the 4th house, and it lead to the answer. That?s quite sound reasoning. But there is also some emphasis on the axis of the 2nd ? 8th houses. Her significator is in your 2nd house, as is the 4th house ruler, as is the South Node. Her significator the Moon is also ruled by Venus, which rules the 2nd house. In other words, she after some money. The Moon?s most recent contact was with Mars, your brother. This fits what you have said, but I am a little puzzled since this last aspect was a sextile, while it seems that your brother went through a pretty tough time with her, more on the order of a square or opposition.

I haven?t had the time to look at this more, but you might want to take a look at the Sun?s next aspect, which is a square with Jupiter, which rules the 4th house. At this great distance, it might be that you will have a difficult time with your family over this matter. I certainly can?t say how that might come about, but when you have a chart dealing with a 12th house matter, and when you have such a manifestly unstable person in the situation as this woman seems to be, I?d say you can?t be too careful.

Thanks for posting this chart and the follow up to it.

Allow me to add a few thoughts. Such an interesting chart with a known outcome is just too good a chance to learn something Accordingly I ask to forgive me possible mistakes in thinking or techniques.

As far as I understood, enemies whose existence is known are not considered secret enemies but ?public? ones and hence belong to the 7th. That is why I share kurgal?s decision to use Saturn and Uranus as her significators. Her being ?mysterious?, unknown and hidden is sufficiently described by Saturn being in 12!

Saturn (in detriment) is opposing the quesitor?s significator the Sun and disposed by Moon in the 1st. A cardinal square from the Moon to the Sun shows the story is unpleasant and not to be taken lightly. The Moon is however dispositor of Saturn and positioned in 1, so the quesitor should be in a stronger position.

The question was about the motive for the call. So we should look at the 3rd, in which we find Mars, also ruling the house. This might have given a clue to the brother, at least it does in hindsight The second ruler of the 3rd, Pluto is in 4 and pointing indeed to home.

Jupiter in the 2nd rules the fourth and the 8th (possibly questions of inheritance?). Maybe the family money and properties are of direct relevance to the quesitor?s possessions. Speculation: Jupiter ruling the 4th and the 5th could show the connectedness of the ?affair? and family matters, which are now relevant for money and possessions. Jupiter in applying square to Saturn and applying conj. to Uranus may indicate the story is not yet over and that she might still have some kind of influence relevant to possessions. (One might e.g. think of her influence on others.)

The previous troublesome contact between the brother and the woman is expressed by separating opposition-antiscium to Saturn and separating square to Uranus.

The first aspect between significators (including the one of the 3rd house) is Sun-Mars conj (antiscium). The contact to the brother bringing clarity!