book - the judgments of nativities - Abu 'Ali Al-Khayyat

1
i got a 2nd hand copy of this james holden book - the older version in dot matrix - i guess that is why i got it so cheaply, lol.

the introduction that holden writes is excellent if you haven't read it. it gives a great overview on important historical information for those interested in traditional astrology.

i note that benjamin dykes has included a translation of this same small sized book in his persian nativities 1..

according to holden and a few other folks that i have had the privilege of discussing this with that, while abu 'ali was the student of masha'allah, it seems the student surpassed the teacher in his ability to do/teach astrology.

does anyone know what motivated dykes to do another translation of abu 'ali and include it in this first volume of persian nativities which i have also been recommended to read?

thanks
james

pdf of the book here -
http://www.astroclassic.org/text-trad/abu_ali.pdf

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does anyone know what motivated dykes to do another translation of abu 'ali and include it in this first volume of persian nativities which i have also been recommended to read?
Hi James,

The reason is I think the several crucial errors which Dykes explains in his comments. I can't recall what and where those errors are at this moment, but I can check later.

It is nothing new, Holden re-translated the already existing Firmicus, Schmidt Ptolemy, Riley Valens and etc.

Every new translator has its own reasons for why he decided to re-translate some work from the old ones.

Edit: We posted at the same time, Iris. Thank you for the references.

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thanks iris and ile,

i read the 7 page pdf.. that sheds more light on my question and comments and leaves more questions as well which is fine.

an interesting coincidence in the 7 page pdf and in the other book i am also reading now - introductions to traditional astrology - also by benjamin dykes is the use of BA as an abbreviation for some particular book by masha'allah.. unfortunately dykes can also be accused of errors in his own work by not including in the content section of ITA on page vii any mention of just what BA actually stands for.. the same thing happens when one reads the 7 page pdf and is constantly reminded of BA, but never told just what particular book this is that he is referring to..

perhaps since you have both been so kind to help me this far, you can let me know what BA is supposed to represent as it is missing in the contents for this book i am presently reading - ITA -introductions to traditional astrology - so that if i see it again in the next 300 or so pages i will know in advance what it stands for..

on another note - it is interesting this translation of holdens from 1988 seems like such a long time ago in spite of how recent all these developments actually are... when i think of benjamin dykes books - this one i am reading now ITA published in 2011, while his Persian Nativities trilogy having come out just before - 2009/2010 - it is really quite fascinating to think how cutting edge and modern it is to be reading manuscripts being made available after such a long hiatus!~ while folks like to call themselves 'traditional' astrologers, it is happening thanks to the 'modern' age, lol... these opportunities to learn more about traditional astrology have never been so plentiful for those interested.

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james_m wrote: an interesting coincidence in the 7 page pdf and in the other book i am also reading now - introductions to traditional astrology - also by benjamin dykes is the use of BA as an abbreviation for some particular book by masha'allah.. unfortunately dykes can also be accused of errors in his own work by not including in the content section of ITA on page vii any mention of just what BA actually stands for.. the same thing happens when one reads the 7 page pdf and is constantly reminded of BA, but never told just what particular book this is that he is referring to..


Hello James,

I hope you do not mind me mentioning it, but on the first page and first paragraph of the mentioned pdf file, which is entitled "Hugo of Santalla and the Book of Aristotle", in the first line Book of Aristotle is written in italics and addressed as BA from then on, and even though it is true there is not a clear equals sign between the whole title and the abbreviation, I think it is meant to be implicitly understood.
As for Introductions To Traditional Astrology, the explanation of what BA stands for is, somewhat strangely, not indicated in the VII page at the beginning of the book under Book Abbreviations, but on page 408, in Appendix F: Study Guide to Persian Nativities.

Iris

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Also, volume one of Dykes' "Persian Nativities" contains Masha'allah's "Book of Aristotle" and Abu ali Khayyat's book. If you can't remember what BA means, when you close the book, the front cover will remind you.

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konrad - thanks!
irisalbus wrote:
Hello James,

I hope you do not mind me mentioning it, but on the first page and first paragraph of the mentioned pdf file, which is entitled "Hugo of Santalla and the Book of Aristotle", in the first line Book of Aristotle is written in italics and addressed as BA from then on, and even though it is true there is not a clear equals sign between the whole title and the abbreviation, I think it is meant to be implicitly understood.
As for Introductions To Traditional Astrology, the explanation of what BA stands for is, somewhat strangely, not indicated in the VII page at the beginning of the book under Book Abbreviations, but on page 408, in Appendix F: Study Guide to Persian Nativities.

Iris

iris,

the pdf file you shared does not mention anything of that sort.. now maybe their is another different pdf you are now referring to that does mention it, but if you open the one you shared with me here, there is plenty of mention of BA, but no reference..

as for page 408 appendix F giving the book abbreviations for BA - i see that now, but in the actual place where their is a list to help one read the book -vii there is no such reference.. i suppose one could wander around the back pages trying to find what was implied by BA, but with so many footnotes and pages to choose from wouldn't it be better to have all these book abbreviations placed in the same place?
EPurdue wrote:Also, volume one of Dykes' "Persian Nativities" contains Masha'allah's "Book of Aristotle" and Abu ali Khayyat's book. If you can't remember what BA means, when you close the book, the front cover will remind you.
i don't have volume 1 of dykes 'persian nativities'. i didn't realize that in order to read 'the introduction to traditional astrology' i needed to also have a copy of 'persian nativities' standing close by as well!!!

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james_m wrote: iris,

the pdf file you shared does not mention anything of that sort.. now maybe their is another different pdf you are now referring to that does mention it, but if you open the one you shared with me here, there is plenty of mention of BA, but no reference..


Hello James,

my mistake, sorry. On the page of Persian Nativities Book I, there are two freely downloadable introductions, one is to Abu 'Ali (the one I quoted) and the other is to Masha'allah' Book of Aristotle. In this latter one (that is actually the first on the page) where you can find the paragraph I was referring to. Sorry again.
This is the correct link:
www.bendykes.com/persians/ba-intro.pdf

Iris

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i am almost finished reading this book. it is an excellent book that covers a lot of ground. i wonder if someone like morin would have read this book? reason i mention this is some of the ideas from book 21 seem to have an echo in what is in this book.

i notice how the idea of indian astrology - 4th sign from mars- for example) is used in this book in a number of instances. 4th sign from saturn and the 4th sign more generally has a connection to death it seems. i suppose it depends on how death is represented in the chart, but this idea that i first became familiar with thru indian astrology is replicated in this book as well.

all in all it is a really good book and i can also see why benjamin dykes might have wanted to include it in his persian nativities volume 1 book as well which i have yet to read. i look forward to getting another read through of this in the dykes translation.

another interesting dynamic in this book is how there is a part, or lot for every house and it would seem that the lots were very central to astrologers read of a chart at this time. holden does a good job of highlighting the differences between bonatti, ibn ezra, dorotheus, ptolemy and etc when it comes to how they will have the same lot treated either the same of different depending on the lot or the astrologer.. i have found this an interesting facet of the book as well.