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An Example of Primary Directions and Derivative Charts
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Ile



Joined: 10 Oct 2010
Posts: 132

Posted: Wed Jan 23, 2013 12:55 am    Post subject: An Example of Primary Directions and Derivative Charts Reply with quote

Hi All,

Since I am at the beginning of my new Solar Revolution, I'm drawing conclusions from the events happened in my life in the previous one. I try to find astrological testimonies for the events that were part of my life.
And because I am into reading John Worsdale in the last couple of days, I am trying to incorporate the tools of Primary Directions into my Astrological equipment, even though I am not very skilled with PD's yet.

I want to draw conclusions and find astrological testimonies about a particular event, namely, the death of my uncle (brother of my mother).

He was diagnosed with a Laryngeal cancer and died a couple of months later.

This is my chart:


This is the direction I want to examine:


This is the Solar Revolution for the year:


The conclusions I am drawing from these charts are the following.
Mercury rules 12th and that is the 3rd from 10th = brothers and sisters of my mother.
Sun is in 8th from 12th, that is their death.

In my 29th year of life, that is, when I was 28th years old (last year), there is a direction of the Sun to the body of Mercury.

In the Revolution Mars rules 12th, that is the third from 10th, and also 8th from 12th, and is positioned in the 6th from 12th, that is, his disease.

Now, it is not an easy thing to spot an event related to the relatives' lives or their death, but this was what I was able to "catch on" from the astrological factors.

If you see something else, no matter related or not to the primaries or derivative charts, please feel free to comment.

BTW he died on 14th of November.
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james_m



Joined: 05 Dec 2011
Posts: 3728
Location: vancouver island

Posted: Wed Jan 23, 2013 10:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

happy birthday Ile,

sorry to hear of your uncle dying.

what do the positions on the outside of your first chart represent? - saturn and south node in taurus and etc. etc.?

is there a particular reason why your mom has to be represented by the 10th and not the 4th? reason i ask is the moon is a universal symbol for the mother and it is located so close to this axis representative of the parents.

have you considered that the 6th house - 3rd from the 4th could represent your mom's brother?

perhaps some of the planets in the 4th house area (mundane position anyway) could be considered as representing your moms brother? i note the saturn transit which is a natural signifier of death and especially in your chart as it rules the 7/8 houses in this same area, as well as it being a part of the solar revolution 29 libra.

what other charts are you using to re-emphasize this particular pd, or is it just a stand alone pd without any further emphasis with other predictive charts to back it up? i note how close the profected saturn is to this same midheaven axis.

when i run the pd's using naibod key and mundane directions, i get moon direct square jupiter for 2013.02.05. which is some of the reason i ask you the above questions. i am not disagreeing with your viewpoint, just curious why you think the 10th has to represent your mom, as opposed to the 4th in your particular chart. thanks- james
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Ile



Joined: 10 Oct 2010
Posts: 132

Posted: Wed Jan 23, 2013 11:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

james_m wrote:
happy birthday Ile,


Thank you James.

Quote:
what do the positions on the outside of your first chart represent? - saturn and south node in taurus and etc. etc.?


Those are the Dodecatemorias or Twelfth-Parts.

Quote:
is there a particular reason why your mom has to be represented by the 10th and not the 4th? reason i ask is the moon is a universal symbol for the mother and it is located so close to this axis representative of the parents.


The reason is Umar al-Tabari's probable misinterpretation of Ptolemy as 10th representing the Mother, and from here all went down that road, so many of the later author just used 10th to represent the Mother and 4th the Father.

I am not so sure though, whether Umar is the reason for the misinterpretation or he just follows some earlier author, but I think that I have read it so somewhere.

However, this system was practiced by the later authors and it seems that it is plausible and works, so why not give it a try?!

Quote:
have you considered that the 6th house - 3rd from the 4th could represent your mom's brother?


Yes, in a matter of fact I did considered that Saturn to represent the death of my uncle since it is in 3th from 4th, but how can you differ when you are looking at the chart not in hindsight? 6th house and Saturn there can mean so many different things, this is why I tried to put in use the Derivative Houses.

Quote:
what other charts are you using to re-emphasize this particular pd, or is it just a stand alone pd without any further emphasis with other predictive charts to back it up? i note how close the profected saturn is to this same midheaven axis.


Well, Natal - PD's and Solar. I try to combine them as they were used by some of the authors.
But as I said, I am experimenting with this, I am using mostly Arabian Astrology in my practice (profections - firdaria's, distributions and etc). So, one more connection between Sun and Mercury is their current governorship in Firdariyyah! Mercury is ruler and Sun its partner.

BTW I take Moon to represent me in my chart, since it is ascendant ruler. She would still tell something about my parents because it is in 4th, but I am taking it as a significator of my esse.
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james_m



Joined: 05 Dec 2011
Posts: 3728
Location: vancouver island

Posted: Thu Jan 24, 2013 2:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

[quote="Ile"][quote="james_m"]

Quote:
is there a particular reason why your mom has to be represented by the 10th and not the 4th? reason i ask is the moon is a universal symbol for the mother and it is located so close to this axis representative of the parents.


Ile wrote:
The reason is Umar al-Tabari's probable misinterpretation of Ptolemy as 10th representing the Mother, and from here all went down that road, so many of the later author just used 10th to represent the Mother and 4th the Father.

I am not so sure though, whether Umar is the reason for the misinterpretation or he just follows some earlier author, but I think that I have read it so somewhere.

However, this system was practiced by the later authors and it seems that it is plausible and works, so why not give it a try?!


i don't have a rigid attitude about which parent either end of this axis represents. i think it can be either. however when i see a planet that is a more general symbol for the mom - the moon - so close to the 4th house cusp, i tend to associate it more with the mom.. it would be great to hear others thoughts on this matter.. i just don't think it is a simple 4th is father 10th is mother myself.. as a matter of fact you can go back to page 6 on the benjamin dykes pdf that iris shared on the other thread and in the 2nd paragraph read what he has to say about how hellenistic astrologers viewed the 4th/10th signs/house as meaning the same thing - the profession and parents.



james_m wrote:
have you considered that the 6th house - 3rd from the 4th could represent your mom's brother?


Ile wrote:
Yes, in a matter of fact I did considered that Saturn to represent the death of my uncle since it is in 3th from 4th, but how can you differ when you are looking at the chart not in hindsight? 6th house and Saturn there can mean so many different things, this is why I tried to put in use the Derivative Houses.


i am not following you here-> "saturn in the 3rd from the 4th".
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Vasanth



Joined: 05 Jun 2011
Posts: 107

Posted: Thu Jan 24, 2013 4:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Ile,

Happy Birthday!

One suggestion:
Your solar revolution has Saggi in the 8th with its ruler Jupiter in Taurus. I have a feeling your uncle's illness is represented by Jupiter in Taurus.
'Jupiter in Taurus' can indicate Laryngeal cancer. Taurus for throat and Jupiter for excess growth.

Do you have your uncle's natal chart? We can see if any planets in Taurus and his 6th cusp sign.

Vasanth
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Ile



Joined: 10 Oct 2010
Posts: 132

Posted: Thu Jan 24, 2013 12:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

james_m wrote:

as a matter of fact you can go back to page 6 on the benjamin dykes pdf that iris shared on the other thread and in the 2nd paragraph read what he has to say about how hellenistic astrologers viewed the 4th/10th signs/house as meaning the same thing - the profession and parents.


Yes, I know of what Ben speaks in PN, I have all three books of Persian Nativities and are my favorite.

Well, Umar was great, great astrologer. Even the great Abu Ma'shar says that he was a wise man. I would be very happy to be wrong with Umar, Abu Ma'shar and all the astrologers after him using 10th as a mother. It would be a sweet "error" Very Happy

Some quotes:
Quote:
The tenth is the place of authority, promotion, the king, renown, fame, skills, actions and mothers ~ Abu Ma'shar


Quote:
“The 10th domicile is said to be an angle of heaven. And it signifies the king or the kingdom; exaltation and empire; glory; and memory or the voice of praise, also mothers ~ Sahl


Quote:
"But you will know the mother's status from [1] the 10th house and [2] its Lord" ~ Umar.


Schmidt in Facets of Fate says:
Quote:
The Medieval astrologers add Mother here, which is almost certainly due to a misreading of a passage in Book III of Tetrabiblos,( unless it is based on opposition of the 10th to the place of father, which would be derivative house thinking.


But this is not the only thing later astrologers took from Ptolemy. They took Quality of Soul analysis, of which Schmidt is also of opinion that was "made up" by Ptolemy, that is, it is not based on any earlier author. Schmidt takes his clue for this from Hephaistio who follows Ptolemy and in many techniques using says that Ptolemy took this and this from Nechepso and Petosiris, and about Quality of Soul says that "comes from Ptolemy" [I am paraphrasing].

Ptolemy's Bounds also. They were widely used in medieval and renaissance astrology.

So, there are more then one issue. Were all later astrologers wrong using the 10th as mother or using Ptolemy's bound? It is a question for another Astrology war in which I don't want to enter. But so many fascinating astrologers using 10th as mother, it just can't be a mere error without they seeing certain logic in using it as such.
I too, look at 4th as representing both "parents", but recently tried to experiment with 10th as a Mother, and in this particular example, it seems out that it works.

Quote:
i am not following you here-> "saturn in the 3rd from the 4th".


Saturn is in SR 6, and this is 3rd house from 4th.

Vasanth:
Quote:
One suggestion:
Your solar revolution has Saggi in the 8th with its ruler Jupiter in Taurus. I have a feeling your uncle's illness is represented by Jupiter in Taurus.
'Jupiter in Taurus' can indicate Laryngeal cancer. Taurus for throat and Jupiter for excess growth.

Do you have your uncle's natal chart? We can see if any planets in Taurus and his 6th cusp sign.


Hi Vasanth, thank you for your wishes.

Unfortuntely I don't have his birth time, but looking at the chart of the day he was born one can see that he has Moon in Taurus and Mars in Aquarius. Mars is dominating the Moon from the tenth above her (tenth house from the Moon). This is ill omen for health, and you see how Taurus is involved here.

Yes, I can see the logic behind Jupiter in 12th. He is in Taurus in 3rd from 10th and rules 8th of the Revolution. So, he is accidental malefic in the revolution by ruling the 8th and being in the 12th (non turned), if we ought to look at his death from my own chart.
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Kenneth Johnson



Joined: 12 Aug 2012
Posts: 132
Location: San Luis Obispo, CA

Posted: Thu Jan 24, 2013 12:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You quote Bob Schmidt as follows:

The Medieval astrologers add Mother here, which is almost certainly due to a misreading of a passage in Book III of Tetrabiblos,( unless it is based on opposition of the 10th to the place of father, which would be derivative house thinking.

I am not sure why "derivative house thinking" should be regarded as antithetical to Hellenistic astrology -- unless that's not what Bob is implying. After all, the rationale for the 11th as a "house of gain" seems to lie in the fact that it is the 2nd from the 10th. Oppositional pairs are common in Hellenistic astrology -- The House of the Good Daimon (11) is opposite the House of Good Fortune (5) and the House of the Sun (9) opposite the House of the Moon (3). Why should the 10th as house of the mother, opposite to the house of the father, be a "misreading"? Conceptually, it seems to be entirely within the framework of the Hellenistic system, even if not directly stated in the texts thus far available to us.
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Ile



Joined: 10 Oct 2010
Posts: 132

Posted: Thu Jan 24, 2013 1:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kenneth Johnson wrote:
You quote Bob Schmidt as follows:

The Medieval astrologers add Mother here, which is almost certainly due to a misreading of a passage in Book III of Tetrabiblos,( unless it is based on opposition of the 10th to the place of father, which would be derivative house thinking.

I am not sure why "derivative house thinking" should be regarded as antithetical to Hellenistic astrology -- unless that's not what Bob is implying. After all, the rationale for the 11th as a "house of gain" seems to lie in the fact that it is the 2nd from the 10th. Oppositional pairs are common in Hellenistic astrology -- The House of the Good Daimon (11) is opposite the House of Good Fortune (5) and the House of the Sun (9) opposite the House of the Moon (3). Why should the 10th as house of the mother, opposite to the house of the father, be a "misreading"? Conceptually, it seems to be entirely within the framework of the Hellenistic system, even if not directly stated in the texts thus far available to us.


Hi Kenneth,,

Exactly! Oppositional pairs are obvious application even from the earliest times of our astrology.
You could see by reading Valens that he assigned to the II almost same qualities as to the VIIIth place.
Morin would later notice that the ancients mixed the meanings of the opposite pair of houses in such extent that you are not clear whether particular quality of the house is its intrinsic or assigned to it by the virtue of its opposite house.
For example, he says that 6th doesn't intrinsically represent enemies, but this virtue 6th house gets by its opposite house, that is 12th.
The fact that the ancients regarded the opposite house as complementary pairs, can be seen even by the placement of the Joy of the Planets, from which some are of the opinion that the houses got their meanings. You will see in this placement that Jupiter and Venus are in opposition, just as Saturn and Mars on the 12 - 6 axis.

Now, this is maybe not the logic Umar and Abu Ma'shar had in mind when they assigned 10th for the mothers, but I am pretty sure that they found some logic and didn't followed Ptolemy' blindly.
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Vasanth



Joined: 05 Jun 2011
Posts: 107

Posted: Thu Jan 24, 2013 2:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ile,

Quote:
Unfortuntely I don't have his birth time, but looking at the chart of the day he was born one can see that he has Moon in Taurus and Mars in Aquarius. Mars is dominating the Moon from the tenth above her (tenth house from the Moon).


If you don't mind, few more questions to explore further the "Jupiter in Taurus" trail:
What is Jupiter's and Venus' sign in your uncle's natal chart?
If we put Moon in Taurus in the sixth, then ascendant will be Sagittarius, Moon will rule 8th and Mars the 12th. If Sagittarius is the ascendant what is the Moon's term sign? Does Sagittarius ascendant describe your uncle?
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Ile



Joined: 10 Oct 2010
Posts: 132

Posted: Thu Jan 24, 2013 4:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Vasanth wrote:
Ile,

Quote:
Unfortuntely I don't have his birth time, but looking at the chart of the day he was born one can see that he has Moon in Taurus and Mars in Aquarius. Mars is dominating the Moon from the tenth above her (tenth house from the Moon).


If you don't mind, few more questions to explore further the "Jupiter in Taurus" trail:
What is Jupiter's and Venus' sign in your uncle's natal chart?
If we put Moon in Taurus in the sixth, then ascendant will be Sagittarius, Moon will rule 8th and Mars the 12th. If Sagittarius is the ascendant what is the Moon's term sign? Does Sagittarius ascendant describe your uncle?


Hi Vasanth,

I don't mind at all.
Well, he is born 24 or 25th of March 1958, I don't remember well at the moment, but I will ask.
I really don't know if I can put him into Sagittarius' frame, just because he was a simple and ordinary man, I can't take any particular characteristic of him or his life which would give me clues. Also, I didn't hang out with him on a daily basis, I was seeing him rarely cause I live in other city. But I remember that he was very skillful with his hands, he was able to make music instruments like Duduk and I remember he made one for me as I am the only musician in our family so he was kind of proud with that.
Valens says that Sagitarius gives men who are skillful in many fields, so if this can be at least some clue, then yes, we can start considering Sag as Asc. Although we all know that it is not enough.
But as I said, he was very simple man, not interested in philosophy, reading, or that kind of stuff.

However, my point in starting this thread was trying to find clues for his death in my own chart. I think I found some interesting clues with the twelfth-parts and their position in the revolution while ago, but I don't remember where I throw the notes in which I exercised this. I can write that stuff later here if I find them.
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james_m



Joined: 05 Dec 2011
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Posted: Thu Jan 24, 2013 5:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

hi Ile,
if you want to rely on the words of someone as to a definitive answer on which end of the midheaven axis represents the mother that is your call!

sagittarius is the 6th house cusp in your chart.. the primary direction that i mentioned earlier - pd moon to the square of jupiter - is why i thought that interesting. so, i guess i find vasanths comments equally interesting with their particular focus..

on another note, what do you make of the sun/moon conjunction in the solar return chart of yours?
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Ile



Joined: 10 Oct 2010
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Posted: Thu Jan 24, 2013 5:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

james_m wrote:
hi Ile,
if you want to rely on the words of someone as to a definitive answer on which end of the midheaven axis represents the mother that is your call!


Hi James,

Well, as a traditional astrologer I want to see if something I use was actually used in the tradition, that is, by the great masters of our Art that kept this Art alive through out so many centuries. Especially, in the initial stages of my study of the Tradition, I am very reserved to use something on my own account without first being in a position to learn, test and apply the principles which the tradition holds. This is why I rely on the words and experience of Abu Ma'shar and other great ones.

Quote:
sagittarius is the 6th house cusp in your chart.. the primary direction that i mentioned earlier - pd moon to the square of jupiter - is why i thought that interesting. so, i guess i find vasanths comments equally interesting with their particular focus..


Thank you for sharing this, I somehow missed it in your previous post Confused
The reason why I started this thread is actually to hear your [that of others] viewpoints and your take on this event. I started explaining 10th house and my methods just because you asked me.
So you think that the square between Moon and Jupiter by directions, would say something about my uncle's death? Because Jupiter rules and is in the 6th (that is, 3rd from 4th) and because Moon is in the 4th, that is my family? Am I following your logic rightly?

Quote:
on another note, what do you make of the sun/moon conjunction in the solar return chart of yours?

This is interesting. I have seen such a conjunction in yet another Solar Return of a person who I know and she also lost her uncle in that year.
But, one can not base something on two examples only. This conjunction and occultation of the Moon into the Sun's rays, it is probably related to bringing death, or signifying death of a close one. I am not sure.
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james_m



Joined: 05 Dec 2011
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Posted: Thu Jan 24, 2013 7:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

hi Ile,

i think it is great what you are doing and i respect your desire to follow in some type of tradition.. i think the tradition includes the idea that planets can be a general symbol for certain areas of life too.. venus and relationships and marriage for example, moon for family and perhaps both these for women in one's life. my understanding is that this axis regardless of which end represents the parents.. i note a heavy focus on men as opposed to women in some of the early astrological literature.. i was curious to see what the lot of the mother was while reading 'introduction to traditional astrology'. if you look at ben dykes book you will note the formula for lot/part of the father comes up on page 294, while the lot of the mother comes up much later on page 318.. now maybe this is a little quirk where all these other lots/parts need to be covered first before we come to the lot of the mother.. i don't know, but to me its suggestive of the relative value of these things..

interesting perhaps for you is that the formula for these lots/parts of the father and mother involve what i am trying to say with reference to the moon in your chart.. the formula for the mother involves moon and venus off the ascendant and reverses depending on whether it is a day or night chart.. the formula for the father involves the sun and saturn.. i think the reason for these formulas is they have something to do with the general idea of father and mother as represented by certain planets - sun, moon and etc..

as to your question - are you following me correctly? - yes!

thanks for sharing your take on the new moon in your solar return. i was thinking it might somehow go back to your own chart and the moon placement, but i don't know exactly. it was interesting for me from that angle..ultimately for me the moon is a general symbol for the family and women. when i see it so close to a conjunction on this axis i associate with the parents i made the association of the 4th with the mother.. at any rate based on your chart i would say you have a very close relationship to your mother!!! cheers james
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Ile



Joined: 10 Oct 2010
Posts: 132

Posted: Fri Jan 25, 2013 12:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Here is another example.
I think that Whole Signs here plays better role in the description of the event.

This is the natal chart.


This is the Direction.


This is the Solar Return.


Event is a death of his father when he was 11 years old.

I think that the death of his father here is shown in several ways.
First, there is a direction of Ascendant to the Sun - natural significator of Father's in a day charts.
Second, Sun is in the 8th sign from the IC! signifying father's death, or saying something about his death.
Third, in the revolution this Sun also rules 8th from IC and is on the IC signifying ends alongside Mercurry who is radical accidental significator of the Father ruling the IC!
Fourth, SR ASC hits exactly natal Saturn, ruler of Pars Mortis Patris [death of the father] in Aquarius.

On the other side, Ascendant by Distributions comes to 26°Aquarius in exact conjunction with Pars Mortis Patris [death of father] which is taken by day from Saturn to Jupiter and projected from the ascendant. Saturn is Distributor and it is by transit in this sign, coming almost in exact degree on the day of the death [just entered the terms of the distribution at 25° Aquarius].

These are the factors in my opinion, that described his father's death in that year.
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james_m



Joined: 05 Dec 2011
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Posted: Fri Jan 25, 2013 5:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ile wrote:
Here is another example.
I think that Whole Signs here plays better role in the description of the event.

Event is a death of his father when he was 11 years old.

I think that the death of his father here is shown in several ways.

Second, Sun is in the 8th sign from the IC! signifying father's death, or saying something about his death.


this 2nd point is not based off whole sign houses, but perhaps you've made an exception for this one here.

Ile wrote:
Third, in the revolution this Sun also rules 8th from IC and is on the IC signifying ends alongside Mercurry who is radical accidental significator of the Father ruling the IC!
Fourth, SR ASC hits exactly natal Saturn, ruler of Pars Mortis Patris [death of the father] in Aquarius.

These are the factors in my opinion, that described his father's death in that year.


i agree with you about the 4th point - sr asc conjunct natal saturn being central. natal saturn is ruler of his sun and the 12th house and a natural signifactor for death.. another interesting feature of the sr chart is the location of saturn at 18 aquarius quite close to the rising mercury in the natal chart which rules the 11 year olds i.c. and 8th house, suggesting that issues around death and the family dynamic, (perhaps the father more specifically) will be a central focus in this year of the persons life. this is strengthened with the sr square of saturn to sr moon in scorpio and perhaps even more so by the sr sun/mercury on i.c.

as for the primary direction data you share, i would need to see the chart data in order to make a more informed comment on that but it seems simple enough and continues to emphasize this theme of the father.
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