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Essential Dignity-Qualitative or Quantitative?
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Mark
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Posted: Sun Jan 20, 2013 8:08 pm    Post subject: Essential Dignity-Qualitative or Quantitative? Reply with quote

I was wondering how people regard planets in essential dignity. What is this telling us about a planet? In general everyone would see Venus in Taurus as being a harmonious placement for that planet. So the placement conditions how the planet potentially manifests.

However, what about the strength of a planet to influence affairs in a chart? Does essential dignity make a planet 'stronger' or simply modify how it manifests its essential nature?

Is essential dignity telling us anything about power to act or is it better understood as reflecting the the motivation of a planet?

Do you see essential dignity as a qualitative or quantitative issue or is it both?

Mark
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Konrad



Joined: 01 Nov 2009
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Posted: Sun Jan 20, 2013 8:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'd say it doesn't even show motivation, just how independant a planet can be. When in another's place, they have to play by others' rules, when in their own places, they behave the way they wish to. Venus is always going to try and be Venus, it is obviously much easier for her to do so when she is in her own places.

I see the planets as being without motivation for anything other than their own natures, the duties given by way of the house positions and rulerships show where those natures are directed and their interactions via apsects show how aided or obstructed they are in trying to be themselves.
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epurdue



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Posted: Tue Jan 22, 2013 4:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Definitely qualitative. "Strength" probably isn't a good word for a dignity, though I'm certainly guilty of using that word sometimes. House placement could be considered quantitative though.
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PFN



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Posted: Tue Jan 22, 2013 4:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Qualitative.

I believe I've already defended this position before here in the forum, but this discussion is always interesting.

All in all, Dignities, Joys and even Sect are, in my view, all matters of qualitative expression, and the only way to gauge strength for a planet is through it's angular position.
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margherita



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Posted: Tue Jan 22, 2013 2:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I vote for Qualitative too.

A planet in an angle is strong whatever it is out of sect, in detriment and so on. It produces effects, but not in the best way for the native.

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Paul
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Posted: Tue Jan 22, 2013 2:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm going to say qualitative as well, however I also think that something with greater 'togetherness' to it can also have more power to act, so I'd be open to thinking of a well placed planet in its own sect and dignities as having less struggle attached to it and more ability to act to its best interests and nature and so a side effect could be a boost to its power to act (its quantitative strength).
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Petr



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Posted: Tue Jan 22, 2013 3:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I agree, qualitative.

I involve sect into essential dignity.
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Mark
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Posted: Tue Jan 22, 2013 8:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I must be getting old. I find myself agreeing with everyone here. Sad

As we seem to have total consensus on my first issue let me open up another question.

While I understand the reasons for the traditional distinction between essential and accidental dignity I think this qualitative vs quantitative is not taught enough.

Apart from house placement do you think there any other ways in which the power or overall 'strength' of a planet can be increased in a chart?

Mark
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Vasanth



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Posted: Tue Jan 22, 2013 9:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Apart from house placement do you think there any other ways in which the power or overall 'strength' of a planet can be increased in a chart?

What about aspect with an angular planet ? Does that help? Especially when the aspect is an applying one.
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Vasanth



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Posted: Tue Jan 22, 2013 10:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Mark,

I will list the factors that I think might help increase the planet's influence:
1. Aspect with Angular Planet especially with Reception
2. Tight Aspect to the Angles
3. Ruler/Almuten Angular
4. Good Solar phase - Morning / Evening Stars
5. Angular with respect to Part of Fortune (especially the 10th)

Vasanth
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PFN



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Posted: Tue Jan 22, 2013 10:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If the dispositor of a planet is angular and aspects it (reception), I would argue that the disposing planet "lifts" the succedent or cadent planet, helping it express its vocation. The level of struggle will depend on the type of the aspect, of course. Also, that does not happen due to the power of the planet itself, but because of the power of a "helping" planet.

Also, a simple aspect from another planet could be a helping hand as well, though it could not, if the planet is a malefic or has some kind of enmity towards said planet.
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Konrad



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Posted: Tue Jan 22, 2013 10:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I always note angles from Fortune, especially those closely linked by degree.
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james_m



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Posted: Tue Jan 22, 2013 11:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

this isn't traditional so take the comments off the board if they need to be removed..

i view trying to understand astrology something like taking out the ingredients of a bowl of soup and trying to analyze why it tastes the way it does.. it really can't be done properly!!

venus in taurus - a nice flavour in itself, which probably wouldn't hurt the soup if it was one of the main ingredients on an angle, or buried somewhere within.. but you are not going to get any idea of what the flavour of this is without connecting it to all the other flavours in the chart.. that is the dilemma.

regardless whether it hits an angle or not, i think it is going to add something to the soup.. put it with mars in aries and it is going to be different then with mars in cancer.. have it so that saturn is hard aspecting it is going to change the flavour too.. i don't know if this is qualitative or quantitative, but it is the way i usually think of blending all of these different energies. one energy might seem to dominate if it is the sole planet on an angle for example, but even then i am not so sure. i think all the energies are at work and what we have is the product of a blender - pureed soup if you will.. certain planetary positions are going to sweeten or sour the overall taste and it is our task to find some way of harmonizing it all to where it is palatable.. the astrology of cooking, 101, lol...
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Mark
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Posted: Tue Jan 22, 2013 11:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi james,

Your analogy sounds like an astrological Smörgåsbord. Very Happy

I accept delineation is about synthesizing numerous diverse factors. That doesn't mean applying some intellectual discrmination to its different elements is useless.

For example, solar phase. On the one hand Ptolemy tells us solar phase changes the nature or quality of a planet. So that seems entirely qualitative. On the other hand other ancient astrologers like Serapio tell us planets are 'strong' in opposition to the Sun. Of course The moon is full in opposition to the sun. In addition this idea finds an echo in the Indian idea that retrograde planets are more powerful in expression. The superior planets Mars, Jupiter and Saturn will be retrograde and brighter in the night sky in opposition to the Sun.

There is also the notion that oriental planets are more forceful in expression. Although qualitively that can be problematic for say a feminine planet like Venus.

I am also intrigued how people delineate planetary speed. How do people understand speed or planetary motion in the context of this topic? Does greater speed make a planet stronger in expression? Dignity tables certainly give planets more points for this. Outside of horary or electional astrology though how do you interpret that?

James one thing is for sure..you have made me damn hungry! Very Happy

Mark
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Last edited by Mark on Wed Jan 23, 2013 12:28 am; edited 1 time in total
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james_m



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Posted: Wed Jan 23, 2013 12:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

sorry if i made you hungry.. i would invite you over, but you aren't even on the wrong side of this continent!

to me essential dignity suggests the planet has a natural affinity and ease of expression without considering anything else.. once you start considering all the many things that astrologers typically factor in, it starts changing it all. for me, the sun, moon and ascendant are the critical 'ingredients'.. all these other factors including all the other planets will aid or hinder the planet getting its best interests looked after. venus in taurus setting in a nocturnal chart might sound better then it rising in the chart of a gemini sun rising.. perhaps it wouldn't come out as easily or be more warlike as they say about venus rising as opposed to setting..

i have venus in taurus on the descendant in a nocturnal chart. a close friend and a fantastic keyboard player is a gemini with venus in taurus setting as well.. we both like chocolate cake, lol... i think this placement is going to share some things in common regardless of all these other factors, but it makes sense that it would be modified by other considerations as well - maybe 146 considerations is too many, but i agree it will be modified a number of ways. sorry for the food distractions taurus people!
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