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Traditional sources on synastry?
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Martin Gansten
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Posted: Tue Nov 01, 2011 5:03 pm    Post subject: Traditional sources on synastry? Reply with quote

In another thread, Tom wrote:

Quote:
Synastry isn't considered a traditional topic

Unfortunately, the thread was locked before I had the time to reply. Ptolemy for one does consider aspect relationships between two nativities in Tetrabiblos (IV.5, Robbins translation):

Quote:
Marriages for the most part are lasting when in both the genitures the luminaries happen to be in harmonious aspect, that is, in trine or in sextile with one another, and particularly when this comes about by exchange; and even more when the husband's moon is in such aspect with the wife's sun.

I have never paid much attention to synastry myself, but this topic coming up has made me wonder how much (or little) synastry material other traditional sources may hold. Has anyone made a study of this?
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Konrad



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Posted: Tue Nov 01, 2011 5:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

No, but I was going to post that Masha'allah mentions it briefly in the Book of Aristotle in regards to friendship. I may have this out of context as I have not done more than scan the book but I will leave the quote here anyway:

"Moreover the regard of one of the lights from the trigon while the fortunate ones regard them, the malevolents being turned away by every figure, reveal more openly the root and business of friendship".
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Chris Brennan



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Posted: Wed Nov 02, 2011 7:52 am    Post subject: Re: Traditional sources on synastry? Reply with quote

Martin Gansten wrote:

I have never paid much attention to synastry myself, but this topic coming up has made me wonder how much (or little) synastry material other traditional sources may hold. Has anyone made a study of this?



There are some very brief references to synastry in Dorotheus and Serapio as well. I think that it is Serapio who actually uses the Greek term "synastria" (συναστρία). Combined with the references in Ptolemy, this seems like enough to indicate that the subject was practiced in the Hellenistic tradition, although like solar returns we don't have any complete treatments of the subject that have survived from the earlier tradition.
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Tom
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Posted: Wed Nov 02, 2011 10:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If I was going to be called on this, I should have expected it on Skyscript. Still to be fair to me, I never said no one ever mentioned it before the modern era. I just said it isn't considered a traditional topic: and it isn't. Look through the traditional forum and how often do we see it? Lilly missed it too.

My only goal was to get some answers for the person who asked the question: it wasn't happening on the Traditional Forum, so I suggested it be placed elsewhere. I only locked the question to avoid having multiple threads on the same post. That's it. No attempt at purity - only consideration for the questioner.
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Martin Gansten
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Posted: Thu Nov 03, 2011 9:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

No problem, Tom; I wasn't out to get you. This is just something I have thought about, peripherally, from time to time, and the question coming up in the traditional forum provided the impetus to post. I think one major reason I haven't bothered much with synastry in the past is precisely the scarcity of traditional sources on the subject.
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Eddy



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Posted: Thu Nov 03, 2011 5:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I once read an article "Sinhalese Astrology, South Asian Caste Systems, and the Notion of Individuality" from Steven Kemper, 1979 about the use of astrology (nest to caste) was used for arranging marriages.

Although very different from (modern) technique the basis of synastry is similar, namely comparing charts of possible marriage partners. The difference and the use of the nakshatras makes me think that there couldn't have been a modern Western astrology influence.

Wasn't there something similar in the early centuries A.D or in medieval times, with arranged marriages and comparing charts etc?

If not, what would an astrologer do if asked for advice on marriage? I assume a horary question then, to answer the question if some partner is the best choice.
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Martin Gansten
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Posted: Thu Nov 03, 2011 7:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You are quite right, Eddy: there is a traditional Indian form of synastry based largely on lunar mansions (nakshatras). I believe it is more prevalent in the south; it may be an indigenous development.
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Eddy



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Posted: Fri Nov 04, 2011 4:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think Kemper's article would interest you as a sociological study of South-East Asia, Martin. I assume that (unfortunately unlike most people here) you have acces to Jstor. It discusses Louis Dumont's concept of 'dividuality' and the role of astrology in this concept.

In essence, in the South-East, rather than an autonomous entity, the individual is considered a small part of greater wholes in mutual relations. Furthermore the individual is a "bundle of relations" (therefore 'dividual'), which can be found in astrological positions.
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Martin Gansten
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Posted: Fri Nov 04, 2011 8:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Eddy wrote:
I think Kemper's article would interest you as a sociological study of South-East Asia, Martin. I assume that (unfortunately unlike most people here) you have acces to Jstor.

I do; thanks. I found this and another article by Kemper ('Time, person, and gender in Sinhalese astrology'), both of which are of potential interest to me insofar as they contain ethnographical data on astrology in Sri Lanka -- although the many transliteration mistakes set off alarm bells in my philologist's mind. The sociological theorizing leaves me rather more cold; but then my view on sociology has always tended towards the Lehrerian: Wink
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wX5II-BJ8hI
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Eddy



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Posted: Sat Nov 05, 2011 11:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hopefully there weren't too many alarm bells. Perhaps a good or uniform transliteration is never possible. For example there are a hand ful of transliterations for the name Khadafi. In the library I don't have the means to listen to Lehrer on youtube, but I found the lyrics. No offence, but I believe that sometimes his satire might apply to astrology as well.
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Martin Gansten
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Posted: Sat Nov 05, 2011 3:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

With apologies for going off topic briefly:

Eddy wrote:
Hopefully there weren't too many alarm bells. Perhaps a good or uniform transliteration is never possible. For example there are a hand ful of transliterations for the name Khadafi.

With the use of diacritics (as in Kemper's article), one-to-one transliteration is not a problem, so that getting them wrong a lot is a sign of limited language skills -- always a problem when working with cultural interpretation.

Quote:
In the library I don't have the means to listen to Lehrer on youtube, but I found the lyrics. No offence, but I believe that sometimes his satire might apply to astrology as well.

I'm afraid you are right. Perhaps the biggest difference is in the funding...
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Eddy



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Posted: Sun Nov 06, 2011 11:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I wonder if when translating ancient Sanskrit texts one gets confronted with the same difficulties as ancient Arabic. I once read about Koran translations of Christoph Luxenberg. Some texts become very different and closely related to ancient Christian texts http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Syro-Aramaic_Reading_of_the_Koran
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Jogi



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Posted: Sun Nov 06, 2011 7:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Martin,

in chapter XIII in Morin's 'Astrologia Gallica - Book 21' he talks shortly about the relationship of planets in a chart to significators in an another chart.

Jogi
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Martin Gansten
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Posted: Sun Nov 06, 2011 8:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jogi wrote:
in chapter XIII in Morin's 'Astrologia Gallica - Book 21' he talks shortly about the relationship of planets in a chart to significators in an another chart.

So he does; thanks for reminding me. I suppose we must call Morin a traditional source, although he flouted many older teachings.
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Jogi



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Posted: Sun Nov 06, 2011 9:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

There's also a smal part in Johannes Schoener's "On the Judgment of Nativities" - Chapter 14: Conercerning the Native's Friends and Enemies.
There he also gives some hints about signs of firm love or discord between two people.
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