skyscript.co.uk
   

home articles forum events
glossary horary quiz consultations links more

Read this before using the forum
Register
FAQ
Search
View memberlist
View/edit your user profile
Log in to check your private messages
Log in
Recent additions:
Can assassinations be prevented? by Elsbeth Ebertin
translated by Jenn Zahrt PhD
A Guide to Interpreting The Great American Eclipse
by Wade Caves
The Astrology of Depression
by Judith Hill
Understanding the mean conjunctions of the Jupiter-Saturn cycle
by Benjamin Dykes
Understanding the zodiac: and why there really ARE 12 signs of the zodiac, not 13
by Deborah Houlding

Skyscript Astrology Forum

Essential meaning of houses according to Morin
Goto page 1, 2  Next
 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Forum Index -> Traditional (& Ancient) Techniques
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
damon



Joined: 23 Sep 2012
Posts: 419

Posted: Sun Jan 20, 2013 8:30 pm    Post subject: Essential meaning of houses according to Morin Reply with quote

Hi

I like Morins logical approach to charts.
Too many astrology cookbooks refer to the sun in 8th house as the death of our fathr,partner etc. See below his thoughts on this:

Quote:
It should be made clear that in a birth horoscope the essential
meaning of a house is an accidental thing which in itself pertains to the
native alone and to no other person—that is, the meaning of the first
house is the physical constitution, character, and temperament of the
native alone and not of another; the meaning of the twelfth house is the
illnesses of the native and not of any other; the significance of the eighth
house is the death of the native and not of any other; and so on for the
remaining houses. Therefore a planet, sign, or aspect in any house has
reference to its essential meanings for that native and pertains to him
alone; and so, a planet in the seventh would have significance for the
marriage, litigations and enemies of that native but not of any other
person.
Hence it is clear how much the ancients were in error when they
took no notice of this fact, and when from the eighth house they passed
judgments on the death of the native's parents, spouse, children, servants,
and friends and enemies alike, for they claimed that if, for example, the
ruler of the fifth were in the eighth, or the rulers of both these houses
were in square or opposition to each other, the death of the children
would be signified. And by the same token, if the ruler of the eighth were
conjunct the ruler of the seventh, the death of the spouse would be
shown, or if conjunct the ruler of the fourth, the death of the parents.
Similarly, if the ruler of the fifth were in the tenth, honor and position
would be indicated for the children, or if the ruler of the third were in the
tenth, the same for the brothers. However, the eighth and the tenth refer
only to the death or honors of the native and not of any other person, for
the reasons given above.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Mark
Moderator


Joined: 30 Sep 2005
Posts: 5145
Location: Edinburgh, Scotland

Posted: Sun Jan 20, 2013 8:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Damon,

If you are going to quote astrological sources like this members appreciate the title, and page reference at the end of the quote.

Also its better to differentiate your text from that you are quoting by using the quote function on the forum. You simply highlight the block of text concerned and hit quote. As you will see I have done that for you already but please try and do this yourself in future.

Mark
_________________
‘’As thou conversest with the heavens, so instruct and inform thy minde according to the image of Divinity…’’ William Lilly


Last edited by Mark on Sun Jan 20, 2013 9:00 pm; edited 1 time in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
damon



Joined: 23 Sep 2012
Posts: 419

Posted: Sun Jan 20, 2013 9:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ah ok didnt know
its the same book 21 the only i have page 100

http://www.astroclassic.org/text-trad/MorinJ.pdf
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Mark
Moderator


Joined: 30 Sep 2005
Posts: 5145
Location: Edinburgh, Scotland

Posted: Sun Jan 20, 2013 9:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Damon wrote:
Quote:
ah ok didnt know
its the same book 21 the only i have page 100


Yeah fine. I was just letting you know. If people read this in 6 months time they wouldn't have known about the source being Book 21 since you referred to it on another thread on the forum.

Mark
_________________
‘’As thou conversest with the heavens, so instruct and inform thy minde according to the image of Divinity…’’ William Lilly
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
pankajdubey



Joined: 17 Nov 2006
Posts: 1219
Location: Delhi

Posted: Tue Jan 29, 2013 3:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
for even if the Moon were ruler of the fourth house and
therefore significator of the parents and the mother in particular, it is still
located in the seventh house and by this determination through location
refers more clearly to the wife than to the mother; and so on for the other
planets and houses


Morin is interesting in many ways.
First the method of differentiating between the house rulership,placement and natural rulership but also taking 4th house as mother.

PD
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Tom
Member


Joined: 11 Oct 2003
Posts: 3506
Location: New Jersey, USA

Posted: Sat Feb 02, 2013 6:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Traditionally since the 4th is "ancestry" it represents both parents. But when it is necessary to differentiate the mother and father, then the 10th would be the mother (7th of the 4th). Astrology was never politically correct.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
johannes susato



Joined: 04 Jan 2009
Posts: 1464

Posted: Sat Feb 02, 2013 10:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tom wrote:
Traditionally since the 4th is "ancestry" it represents both parents. But when it is necessary to differentiate the mother and father, then the 10th would be the mother (7th of the 4th). Astrology was never politically correct.

Do you know Morin's explanation of his dissenting opinion, Tom, or: does he give any at all?

Johannes
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
pankajdubey



Joined: 17 Nov 2006
Posts: 1219
Location: Delhi

Posted: Sun Feb 03, 2013 7:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tom wrote:
Traditionally since the 4th is "ancestry" it represents both parents. But when it is necessary to differentiate the mother and father, then the 10th would be the mother (7th of the 4th). Astrology was never politically correct.


Thanks.
Morin goes on to say:
Quote:
Second. It is wise to consider carefully what combinations are
possible for the meanings of the different houses. For when the ruler of
the fourth is in the fifth one would not say that the native's father will
become his son, as this is an impossibility; but we might say that the
father will be of benefit to the native's sons,


Does Morin specifically say anywhere that mother is 4th and father is 10th ? or what exactly is he trying to say here in this book 21.

I think he got carried away by his dislike of his mother:

Quote:
When he was twelve years old both of his parents became
ill at the same time—his mother in childbirth from which she later died,
and his father from a fever from which he was not expected to recover.
During this time his older brother asked him which of his parents he
would rather see die
and Morinus said he would prefer that his father
should live. His brother repeated the conversation to his mother who
from that instant until she died two days later wanted to disinherit him,
and refused to give him her final blessing. The local priests, however,
reminding her about the state of her soul, finally persuaded her to give
this blessing and to allow him to inherit at least the minimum legal
amount. Morinus later noted that his sister received three times what he
did and his brother even more than that.


I think we should read Morin in the context of the Foreword of Book 21.

PD
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Tom
Member


Joined: 11 Oct 2003
Posts: 3506
Location: New Jersey, USA

Posted: Mon Feb 04, 2013 2:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Does Morin specifically say anywhere that mother is 4th and father is 10th ?


Not that I know of. Although we probably have close to all of the astrology portions of AG translated into English, the rest is devoted to the philosophy behind it, we don't have all of it.

Quote:
or what exactly is he trying to say here in this book 21.


In that section he is explaining how to combine the meanings of the planets, rulers and houses. He is only noting that some combinations are clearly absurd, for example having the ruler of the 4th in the 5th cannot mean the natives father will become the native's son. But (my example) having the ruler of the native's 9th in the 7th could mean the native will marry a foreigner. Lilly made a similar observation when he said, "Combine discretion with art."

Quote:
I think he got carried away by his dislike of his mother:


Exactly

Quote:
I think we should read Morin in the context of the Foreword of Book 21.


I have both the Little translation (Astrosynthesis) and the Baldwin, but my copy of Baldwin does not have a Forward. It's old. Which edition are you referring to?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
pankajdubey



Joined: 17 Nov 2006
Posts: 1219
Location: Delhi

Posted: Mon Feb 04, 2013 2:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The link that damon referred to:

http://www.astroclassic.org/text-trad/MorinJ.pdf

It has a nice translators foreword.

PD
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Tom
Member


Joined: 11 Oct 2003
Posts: 3506
Location: New Jersey, USA

Posted: Mon Feb 04, 2013 2:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks. That is part of my book. I just didn't remember it and unfortunately for me, my copy is falling apart anyway. Time for a new one. Thanks for the tip.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
johannes susato



Joined: 04 Jan 2009
Posts: 1464

Posted: Wed Feb 06, 2013 1:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

pankajdubey wrote:
Morin goes on to say:
Quote:
Second. It is wise to consider carefully what combinations are
possible for the meanings of the different houses. For when the ruler of
the fourth is in the fifth one would not say that the native's father will
become his son, as this is an impossibility; but we might say that the
father will be of benefit to the native's sons,


Does Morin specifically say anywhere that mother is 4th and father is 10th ?

PD, could not your quotation be taken as (a rather) specific statement for 4th = parents AND father?

The other quotation you give, Moon as ruler of the 4th ( = mother) in the 7th, is a special one and resembles another (here not yet quoted, but see below) example in Book 21, where the Moon, Lady of the 4th, is in the 12th of Morin's own Horoscope. Morin argues the Moon as Lady of the 4th, is signifying the parents, but here especially the mother because the Moon is a female planet and is in a female sign (Pisces).

But I see this not as the proof you (and me too!) are looking for.

Johannes


Last edited by johannes susato on Wed Feb 06, 2013 1:59 pm; edited 1 time in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
johannes susato



Joined: 04 Jan 2009
Posts: 1464

Posted: Wed Feb 06, 2013 1:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Here is the above mentioned quotation (from the internet), Morin, AG, Book 21, p. 15:

"Consider my own horoscope: I was born during daytime and the
Sun, Moon, Mercury, Venus, and Saturn are in the twelfth house and
square Mars which rules the Ascendant. The Moon is therefore the
significator of the parents because it is ruler of the fourth, and of my
mother in particular since the Moon is feminine and is located in the
feminine sign Pisces; its separation from the conjunction of Saturn while
applying to no other planet indicates dislike by my parents —
particularly by my mother — and unfair treatment at her hands."

Johannes
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
pankajdubey



Joined: 17 Nov 2006
Posts: 1219
Location: Delhi

Posted: Wed Feb 06, 2013 5:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

johannes susato wrote:
Here is the above mentioned quotation (from the internet), Morin, AG, Book 21, p. 15:

"Consider my own horoscope: I was born during daytime and the
Sun, Moon, Mercury, Venus, and Saturn are in the twelfth house and
square Mars which rules the Ascendant. The Moon is therefore the
significator of the parents because it is ruler of the fourth, and of my
mother in particular since the Moon is feminine and is located in the
feminine sign Pisces; its separation from the conjunction of Saturn while
applying to no other planet indicates dislike by my parents —
particularly by my mother — and unfair treatment at her hands."

Johannes


I am not sure what he is trying to say.
He is against "signifactors by essential nature" because of multiplicity of signifactions.He says or means that these signifactions are better off split according to house lordship.
Then he goes on to pick 4th for parents which has atleast two protagonists and then tries to seperate them into male and female by the essential nature of planets and signs.
If 4th is parents and moon is somehow justified as mother then where does the father go... he is not sun because Morin thinks , in his horooscope, Sun is his enemy.

So who does represent his father in that horoscope ?

Do you have Morin's email or twitter tag Question Question

PD
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
damon



Joined: 23 Sep 2012
Posts: 419

Posted: Wed Feb 06, 2013 9:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

pankajdubey wrote:
johannes susato wrote:
Here is the above mentioned quotation (from the internet), Morin, AG, Book 21, p. 15:

"Consider my own horoscope: I was born during daytime and the
Sun, Moon, Mercury, Venus, and Saturn are in the twelfth house and
square Mars which rules the Ascendant. The Moon is therefore the
significator of the parents because it is ruler of the fourth, and of my
mother in particular since the Moon is feminine and is located in the
feminine sign Pisces; its separation from the conjunction of Saturn while
applying to no other planet indicates dislike by my parents —
particularly by my mother — and unfair treatment at her hands."

Johannes


I am not sure what he is trying to say.
He is against "signifactors by essential nature" because of multiplicity of signifactions.He says or means that these signifactions are better off split according to house lordship.
Then he goes on to pick 4th for parents which has atleast two protagonists and then tries to seperate them into male and female by the essential nature of planets and signs.
If 4th is parents and moon is somehow justified as mother then where does the father go... he is not sun because Morin thinks , in his horooscope, Sun is his enemy.

So who does represent his father in that horoscope ?

Do you have Morin's email or twitter tag Question Question

PD


His email?
You may have to ring St Peter Tongue Out
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Forum Index -> Traditional (& Ancient) Techniques All times are GMT
Goto page 1, 2  Next
Page 1 of 2

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
. Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group

       
Contact Deborah Houlding  | terms and conditions  
All rights on all text and images reserved. Reproduction by any means is not permitted without the express
agreement of Deborah Houlding or in the case of articles by guest astrologers, the copyright owner indictated