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Lot of Kingship?
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Mark
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Posted: Tue Jan 08, 2013 7:57 pm    Post subject: Lot of Kingship? Reply with quote

I am a little unclear on the exact calculation for this. Also does it vary by day/night? Could anyone give me a textual reference for this?

I assume its in the writings of Abu Ma'Shar?

Thanks

Mark
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johannes susato



Joined: 04 Jan 2009
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Posted: Tue Jan 08, 2013 11:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hello Mark,

Ibn Ezra, The Beginning of Wisdom, gives for the Lot of Kingship:
Aszendent + Moon - Mars (day) and
Aszendent + Mars - Moon (night).

Johannes
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irisalbus



Joined: 28 Mar 2012
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Posted: Tue Jan 08, 2013 11:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hello Mark,

In Ben Dykes' "Introduction to Astrology: Abu Ma'shar and Al-Qabisi" there are
1) the Lot of the Kingdom and Authority: calculated from Mars to Moon by day and conversely by night, projected from the ASC;
2) the Lot of Power or Kingdom or Supremacy: calculated from the Sun to Saturn by day and conversely by night, projected from the ASC.;
plus some mundane lots about the kingdom in general, by Al-Qabisi.


Iris
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johannes susato



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Posted: Tue Jan 08, 2013 11:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

. . . and Al Biruni:
http://www.skyscript.co.uk/alparts.html
Noble births: Asc + Degree of exaltation of the lord of time - lord of time (reverse at night)
Kings and Sultans Administrators, vazirs [ministers], etc.: Asc + Mars - Mercury (reverse at night) --probably not kings and sultans themselves--
Celebrated persons of rank: Asc + Sun - Saturn
Sultan. Those concerned In nativities: Asc + Moon - Saturn
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johannes susato



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Posted: Wed Jan 09, 2013 12:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

So, if you do not differentiate between kingship, kingdom and authority then Ibn Ezra, Abu Ma'shar and Al-Quabisi would agree with each other.
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astroart



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Posted: Wed Jan 09, 2013 10:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

My opinion is that Haly Abenragel is the only one Arabic author who gives an authentic and accurate formula for calculating the Lot of Kingship. See the second formula for calculating the Lot of Kingship in:

Haly Abenragel, De judiciis astrorum, Basel, 1551, page 232 down

Same formula have used the Byzantine and Hellenistic astrologers as well.
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johannes susato



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Posted: Wed Jan 09, 2013 11:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

astroart wrote:
My opinion is that Haly Abenragel is the only one Arabic author who gives an authentic and accurate formula for calculating the Lot of Kingship. See the second formula for calculating the Lot of Kingship in:

Haly Abenragel, De judiciis astrorum, Basel, 1551, page 232 down

Same formula have used the Byzantine and Hellenistic astrologers as well.


Would you mind to give us this authentic and accurate formula right now, astroart?
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Mark
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Posted: Wed Jan 09, 2013 11:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Astroart wrote:
Quote:
My opinion is that Haly Abenragel is the only one Arabic author who gives an authentic and accurate formula for calculating the Lot of Kingship. See the second formula for calculating the Lot of Kingship in:

Haly Abenragel, De judiciis astrorum, Basel, 1551, page 232 down


I dont need the entire reference but could you tell us the planets involved and calculation method?

Astroart wrote:
Quote:
Same formula have used the Byzantine and Hellenistic astrologers as well.


Which hellenistic sources did you have in mind for this lot?

Thanks

Mark
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irisalbus



Joined: 28 Mar 2012
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Posted: Thu Jan 10, 2013 1:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

At the site of the Warburg Institute I have found "De iudiciis astrorum" and beginning from the middle of the first column of page 232 it says (as far as I can read the facsimile print - those of you good at Latin please forgive my mistakes in the transcription):

"Pars regni & magisterii accipitur de die a Marte in Lunam, & de nocte converso, & proijcitur ad ascendente [....]
Pars regis alio modo accipit de die a Sole in Sat. & de nocte contrario, & proijcit ab ascendente & si Satur. fuerit sub radiis, accipit de die a Sole in Iove & de nocte contrario, & proijcit ab ascendente [....]
Pars magisteriorum alio modo accipit de die&nocte a Satur. in Luna, & proijcit ab ascendente: significator hec pars similiter regnum &potentia &valetudine nati...."

Based on my basic Latin knowledge the first two seem the same as the ones of Abu Ma'shar indicates: from Mars to Moon (and conversely by night), projected from the ASC, or "another way", from Sun to Saturn (and conversely by night), projected from the ASC., with the distinction that if Saturn was under the rays, then one should take it from the Sun to Jupiter (etc).
The third one, that indicates "similar things" for/of the native, is counted from Saturn to the Moon, both by day and night, and project it from the ASC.

warburg.sas.ac.uk/library/digital-collections/bibliotheca-astrologica/#c972

Iris
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Ile



Joined: 10 Oct 2010
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Posted: Thu Jan 10, 2013 1:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Iris, yes I was looking for that passage too [at Haly Abenragel].
Thanks for the translation.

Regiomontanus in his famous analysis of the chart of Maximilian I, uses the lot counted from Saturn to Moon, he calls it Pars Regni and Janus software calculates the same lot with the name "Kingship and what native does" if I recall right.

I think that Regiomontanus was familiar with Haly's work, because he uses his approach in delineating the time of marriage, that is, by directing Jupiter to the Part of Marriage, something for which I think Haly is known for later in the Renaissance period. The famous Rennaisance astrologer Guiliano Ristori also used this approach and ascribed it to Abenragel.

I use this lot, though I keep an open mind for the other lots of kingship too.
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astroart



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Posted: Thu Jan 10, 2013 5:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I mean the second formula in the text on the page 232, first column below or:


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johannes susato



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Posted: Thu Jan 10, 2013 6:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

astroart wrote:
I mean the second formula in the text on the page 232, first column below or:



Thank you, astroart!

"[..] this degree/part is got in the day from the Sun to the Moon, and conversely at night and they project from the degree of the tenth house."

The formula then would be:
MC + Moon - Sun (in the day)
MC + Sun - Moon (in the night).

Johannes
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irisalbus



Joined: 28 Mar 2012
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Posted: Thu Jan 10, 2013 9:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

johannes susato wrote:
astroart wrote:
I mean the second formula in the text on the page 232, first column below or:



Thank you, astroart!

"[..] this degree/part is got in the day from the Sun to the Moon, and conversely at night and they project from the degree of the tenth house."

The formula then would be:
MC + Moon - Sun (in the day)
MC + Sun - Moon (in the night).

Johannes


Hello,

a technical question: do you happen to know why I see only a question mark where I think the original quotation should be in astroart's post? If I click on it only the page www.radikal.ru appears....

Iris
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astroart



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Posted: Thu Jan 10, 2013 9:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Which hellenistic sources did you have in mind for this lot?


Byzantine sources:

folio 25v from the greek MS stored in the Biblioteca Laurenziana in Florenze (Laurentianus 28,16) .The manuscript is described in CCAG I, pp.38-39. Probably the author of the text according to D. Pingree is the Byzantine astrologer John Abramius.

Hellenistic sources:

Lot of Kingship (κληροζ βασιλειαζ) in Heliodori, ut dicitur, in Paulum Alexandrinum Commentarium, Leipzig 1962 , p.59
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johannes susato



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Posted: Thu Jan 10, 2013 9:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

irisalbus wrote:
johannes susato wrote:
astroart wrote:
I mean the second formula in the text on the page 232, first column below or:



Thank you, astroart!

"[..] this degree/part is got in the day from the Sun to the Moon, and conversely at night and they project from the degree of the tenth house."

The formula then would be:
MC + Moon - Sun (in the day)
MC + Sun - Moon (in the night).

Johannes


Hello,

a technical question: do you happen to know why I see only a question mark where I think the original quotation should be in astroart's post? If I click on it only the page www.radikal.ru appears....

Iris


I am not sure to understand your question, Iris, but writing your reply you cannot see arstroart's quotation before you have not pushed the PREVIEW-Button (left to the SUBMIT-Button).

Johannes
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