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Prediction of Morins death
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damon



Joined: 23 Sep 2012
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Posted: Sun Dec 30, 2012 1:38 pm    Post subject: Prediction of Morins death Reply with quote

Hi

Why was Morin so fatalistic about the prediction of his death? Do you know what did he see in his chart that led him to conclude he would die in november 1656,besides the prediction by a Chiromancer ? It appears Jupiter lord of 8th was transiting his ASC asc, BUT that certainly wouldnt be enough.

http://www.skyscript.co.uk/morin.html

Thanks
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Tom
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Posted: Sun Dec 30, 2012 2:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Morin was born Feb 23, 1583 (NS) and died November 6 1656. If there is something in English that explains what he saw in his chart, I haven't seen it. His favored prediction method would be to first go to primary directions, then to the solar return, then the lunar return and finally to transits for a trigger. I doubt this method works perfectly every time.

Looking at his natal chart the Sun is most likely the hyleg (day chart; good house). He does say somewhere that Mars isn't enough to kill by itself, and since we know he didn't die violently, Mars, if involved, would indicate a fever. I'd look for a direction of Saturn about that time to the Sun or to the ASC.

If I get a chance later I'll run some calculations.
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damon



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Posted: Sun Dec 30, 2012 2:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I just did his chart at astrocom and the only thing I notice is AC progressing betwen Mars and IC at the time of his death in SA progression method.
I wonder which predictive mthods he used to predict his own death?
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damon



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Posted: Sun Dec 30, 2012 2:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tom wrote:
Morin was born Feb 23, 1583 (NS) and died November 6 1656. If there is something in English that explains what he saw in his chart, I haven't seen it. His favored prediction method would be to first go to primary directions, then to the solar return, then the lunar return and finally to transits for a trigger. I doubt this method works perfectly every time. Looking at his natal chart the Sun is most likely the hyleg (day chart; good house). He does say somewhere that Mars isn't enough to kill by itself, and since we know he didn't die violently, Mars, if involved, would indicate a fever. I'd look for a direction of Saturn about that time to the Sun or to the ASC. If I get a chance later I'll run some calculations.


Thanks Tom
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damon



Joined: 23 Sep 2012
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Posted: Sun Dec 30, 2012 2:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well here is what I found

SR chart has Sagitarius(his 8th house) rising
SR chart on natal chart has Saturn on 21 Virgo where Mars is in SA progression,in 6th house.
So,you get disease from 6th house and potentially death from 8th house in first.
There may be more but this could be enough.
Smile
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Tom
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Posted: Sun Dec 30, 2012 3:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I misread the chart. The Sun is in the 12th and cannot be hyleg. Neither can the Moon.

Using Janus software, Regiomontanus directions with Naibod key, what he would have used, I found this:

Moon to the opposition of Mars
Saturn to the opposition of Mars

I don't recall if he used converse directions or not. I'd have to look. I don't think he did, but if he did he would have seen ASC to Mars. Mars rules his natal ASC.
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damon



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Posted: Sun Dec 30, 2012 3:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks
Are you referring to Moon and Saturn at 29 and 25 Taurus SA progression ?
I dont think Astro.com has Naboid key anyway
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Tom
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Posted: Sun Dec 30, 2012 4:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

No, primary direction. He didn't use secondary progressions. If he knew about secondary progressions (they were invented by Placidus in the 17th century to check on directions), he might have rejected them as unnatural. He probably would have accepted Saturn and the Moon as having to do with the body as they both aspect Lord AS, Mars.

Moon ruler of the 8th in the solar return, squares Mars in the solar return. The cusp of the 8th in the nativity is the ASC in the SR or very close to it.

In his last lunar return, Jupiter, Lord 8 in the nativity, Lord 1 in the SR is near the 12th house of illness. He is Rx and in detriment, although being retrograde he is separating from the cusp. Morin did not believe in the five-degree rule but he did think planets close to cusps affected both houses due to their orb.

The south node in the lunar return is conjunct the ASC, but he didn't pay much attention to the nodes.
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Martin Gansten
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Posted: Sun Dec 30, 2012 4:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Morin rejected the traditional hyleg method. To him, life was a first-house matter, so he would have focused on directions involving the ascendant and its rulers (main and co-rulers, that is, rulers of the signs intercepted in the first house), as he had no planets in the first.

As Tom says, Morin used primary directions by the method of Regiomontanus and the key of Naibod. He also invented his own method of assigning latitude to aspects; to my knowledge, there is no software yet that includes this method. (Curtis?) He explicitly rejected solar arc directions (proposed by Kepler), so they hardly formed part of his reasoning. He did use converse directions in the traditional sense, but not directions against the primary motion.

To know exactly what Morin saw in his chart, we would have to recalculate his nativity, directions and revolution using his own values for planetary longitudes, latitudes, etc. I notice that the longitude of the Sun in his published nativity is about 8' off compared to modern values, and that of the Moon is about 15' off. But both directions mentioned by Tom sound relevant from Morin's point of view.

The data that best fit the chart and information given by Morin himself are: 23 February, 1583 (NS), 8:33 LAT, 45N25, 5E54. The tropical ascendant is 27Ar17, the MC 13Sg17. (Morin gives the LAT and latitude of the place but not the longitude; I have fitted it to match his values for the angles. He gives the time as 20h 33m past local apparent noon on 21 February, but the chart shows planetary positions, including that of the Moon, that match a time 24 hours later, so presumably the date is a misprint.)
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damon



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Posted: Sun Dec 30, 2012 4:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks
It seems you use PDs Ptolemy style cause I cant find Saturn or Moon making evil aspect Mars with my software.
But I get the SR thing.
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damon



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Posted: Sun Dec 30, 2012 4:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks Martin
Which softwares include key of Naboid?
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johannes susato



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Posted: Sun Dec 30, 2012 5:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Martin Gansten wrote:
Morin rejected the traditional hyleg method. To him, life was a first-house matter, so he would have focused on directions involving the ascendant and its rulers (main and co-rulers, that is, rulers of the signs intercepted in the first house), as he had no planets in the first.

For the best of my remembrance Morin stressed the importance of planets aspecting AC and MC the most precise.

From this point of view Mercury and Saturn would be of importance too.
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Tom
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Posted: Sun Dec 30, 2012 5:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Solar Fire and Janus can be configured to use Naibod. And Kolev's program Placidus will allow it and every other known key. I have a copy of Morinus software, but I rarely look at it. It seems that program only uses a key for one degree = one year of life (Ptolemy). Naibod uses the mean annual motion of the Sun 59' 08" of arc = 1 year. I think that number is right. Since the number is smaller the "hits" will occur later than they will using 1 degree = 1 year since it takes more segments to get there, i.e. more 1 year periods to cover the same distance. As the native gets older the time period for hits between Naibod and Ptolemy increases.

So if you want to eyeball it, look at the one degree per year directions, check the date the hit occurs and add "a bit" to that for Naibod. That's not terribly scientific, but it might help you understand.

For example. George Patton Venus converse to the MC: using 1 degree = 1 year of life (Ptolemy) this hit occurs on Oct 9, 1942. However when we use Naibod the same hit occurs on Aug 7 1943 - 10 months later.

Martin Thank you. I had just pulled out Book 22 of AG when you posted this. I'll adjust my file of his chart accordingly.
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Martin Gansten
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Posted: Sun Dec 30, 2012 6:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

damon wrote:
It seems you use PDs Ptolemy style cause I cant find Saturn or Moon making evil aspect Mars with my software.

No, Tom is right: using modern software, Mars is directed to the opposition of the Moon in 1656 with Regiomontanus/Naibod, both with and without latitude. The Ptolemaic/Placidean arc of direction is several degrees/years shorter.

Tom wrote:
Solar Fire and Janus can be configured to use Naibod. And Kolev's program Placidus will allow it and every other known key. I have a copy of Morinus software, but I rarely look at it. It seems that program only uses a key for one degree = one year of life (Ptolemy).

Actually, Morinus (the freeware) has a number of keys to choose from, including Naibod. (There is another Morinus, designed by Wim van Dam, but I don't think that was the one you meant, was it?)
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Tom
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Posted: Sun Dec 30, 2012 9:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I was wrong about Morinus, the program. On the drop down menu of version 3.5 right below "Primary Directions" is an option to choose one of several keys. My mistake.
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