Dont worry about your 8th house

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http://www.astro.com/astro-databank/Page%2C_Jimmy

Hi
While looking at Jimmy Page chart for temperament(strong phlegmatic) I found that he has ASC lord Mars in 8th conjunct Uranus opposite Venus,ruling also the 6th house,yet,he is alive and well,no violent death at least so far,and he is already 68.
lord of MC mercury is under the Sun and retrogade(obviously he cant use his hands), apparently it didnt harm his guitarrist career.
Jupiter at MC is good for show business.
Unless the the Placidus system deserves more credibility as Mars would be in 7th?

:)

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Mars in the 8th doesn't necessarily indicate a violent death. You seem to be assuming that something must be seriously amiss with WSH since Jimmy Page is still very much alive despite his Mars being in the 8th? That sounds way too fatalistic to me. I would respectfully suggest that the problem here may lie more in your limited interpretation of the meaning of this house and planetary significations in this chart.

Lets take a look at what Robert Schmidt says about this house in his article Facets of Fate:
8th House, called "Idle Place": Death; Weakness; Inheritance or Benefits from Death; Justice (Valens); Life and Livelihood (Hermes). The Medieval treatment is largely the same as the Hellenistic
sources, except it adds the theme of "Other People's Money." Facets of Fate by Robert Schmidt
In more philosophical terms Schmidt explains in the same piece:
8th ? That which bears the native down to oblivion. Planets in the 8th tend away from the Descendant pivot by their own motion, but are carried down upon it by the diurnal motion. This directly symbolizes the life force of the native futilely trying to stay in the light of day, striving against the darkness and the finality of death, which belongs properly to the 7th (remember that Hermes assigned life to the 8th). It is not so much death as the act of dying itself, where the native sinks down to the Descendant in
exhausted lethargy ? a word that comes from the Greek word , meaning oblivion, and the word

argos, a key word of the 8th place, meaning idleness. The adjective kataphorikos, which comes from kataphora, another word applied to planets being brought down to the Descendant, as a medical term actually refers to the lethargy or weakness that bears one down. The only positive manifestation of the succedency of the 8th is that it can bring the native inheritances from the deaths of others, and this is the only sense in which it concerns other people's money. Again, it emphatically has nothing to do with the sex act, which belongs to the 7th, nor with power and authority, which belong to the 9th. Such associations are purely modern innovations with no precedent in the tradition. Robert Schmidt, Facets of Fate.
So the 8th isn't automatically just about death it has wider signification implying a sense of weakness or perhaps dissipation for the native. In renaissance astrology the 8th took on other more psychological issues such as fear and anxiety. As the quote from Schmidt noted this could indicate shared finances in medieval astrology. This is a house in aversion to the Ascendant and also seen as place associated with the diminishing light of the Sun. All this may help explain this houses connection to secrets. In the ancient scheme of houses in the Thema Mundi the 8th place is the sign of Aquarius and is ruled by a quite malefic Saturn which is out of sect in a night chart. In medieval medical astrology using the Chaldean order of the planets the 8th house was associated with the planet Saturn and the sign of Scorpio.

Now looking at Mars lets recap. Its the the planet of war, anger, fighting and violence. The malefics were generally considered to be problematic and bring loss and harm. However, this would vary depending on their dignity. Looking at some ancient sources like Valens or Firmicus Mars and Saturn can work well for a person depending on sect, dignity, aspectual relationship and house placement.

The red planet is a sexual planet and rules physical attraction, sex drive, male sexuality and sexual energy (in males exclusively while Venus rules female sexual energy and sexuality).

Putting this together one could say that Mars energy could be chanelled inappropriately or recklessly into activities that were detrimental to the health of the native. In the chart Mars is Lord 6 so this could interpreted as the native contributing to his own dissipation through addictions or sex. Didn't this guy suffer from drug addiction for decades? That would certainly fit that signification.

However, Mars can be very useful because it rules initiative, enthusiasm, and along with the Moon it has significance for anything that requires the body to move such as dancing, martial arts and sport. Combined with a synodical Mercury this may help explain his exceptional co-ordination seen in his guitar playing. The fact Mercury (WSH Lord 10/MC ruler) is Rx only seems to gives more emphasis to the uniqueness of this planet in the chart.

All this to me sounds like an excess of drugs, sex and rock and roll!

Since Venus is Lord 7 and we could interpret the problems of his drugs and his sexual behaviour put his relationships under intense strain. I understand Jimmy Page has married 3 times. With both both malefics in this house Jimmy Page almost certainly lost assets in divorce settlements. More positively, this opposition in part may help explain his dynamic artistic talent of making him one of the greatest guitar players of all time.

Mars is at least in sect here in a night chart although on the negative side it is peregrine, occidental of the Sun, and in a masculine sign.

Saturn is interesting here. In some ways it may be symptomatic of more problems than Mars as its Rx and the malefic out of sect. Saturn is the natural significator for the father in a night chart and rules the WSH 4th so may indicate a troubled relationship with the Father here. On the other hand it could indicate acquisition of wealth through property. However, as noted above much of this was probably taken away from the native in his divorces. Still overall I understand he has a personal wealth of ?75 million so he isn't coping too badly!

Mercury is synodical with the Sun here in a cardinal sign indicating an inventive even brilliant mind. Moreover, the Moon is sect ruler in this chart and very strongly configured in its domicile (Cancer) in the 9th WSH. I believe Jimmy page had a strong interest in occult matters. Both a cardinal sign in the 9th and the Moon indicate someone likely to reject the faith they were brought up in. Mercury under the beams also gives a link to hidden or secret matters. The Moon in the 9th also makes relationships with foreign women quite likely. (I wrote this before finding out his first two wives were French and his third wife was Brazilian!) Its difficult to know to much about all this as Jimmy Page is deeply private about his personal life. Rather fitting in terms of the 8th WSH!

Mark
Last edited by Mark on Sun Dec 30, 2012 2:19 pm, edited 2 times in total.
As thou conversest with the heavens, so instruct and inform thy minde according to the image of Divinity William Lilly

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Hi Mark

My bad.I forgot Mars was in sect.
I know the meanings of 8th but with Mars I normally expect the worst unless it is exalted as Capricorn cools and directs it.That is why I am surprised Mars in sect at night but not in Winter,when it is cold.
As for Mercury, I am not so sure. Most members here seem to view a retrogade Mercury or combust as not generally a good thing. But then he has that Jupiter.
which rules 5th.

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Damon wrote:
As for Mercury, I am not so sure. Most members here seem to view a retrogade Mercury or combust as not generally a good thing.
Thats true. Its a standard medieval view. My position is eclectic but generally more hellenistic than medieval. I think I better explain my position better on that as I basically reject the standard medieval/renaissance take on this.

Cazimi or "in the heart of the Sun", is the position of a planet in tight conjunction with the Sun within 17' (minutes of arc). The Sun's radius on the sky is 17'. This planetary position is said to be one of great strength, the planet is fortified by the Sun's rays. Also called "zaminium". William Lilly, the 17th century authority in horary astrology, said of a cazimi planet to be "wonderous strong".

In ancient astrology there was no notion of 'cazimi' as we find in later medieval and renaissance astrology. This became refined down by Lilly's time to planets strictly within 17 minutes of the Sun. I remember once sitting in an astrology meeting with two Virgos debating whether a planet 18 minutes from the Sun was still cazimi! I think such discussions are ridiculous and show a reductionist mind set that is not that useful in natal work. The later notion of cazimi clearly reflected a refined astronomical understanding to calculate a planet's proximity to the Sun.

In contrast in ancient and early medieval astrology (see Sahl) any planet within a degree of the Sun was seen as highly dignified and powerful in effect. I use the term 'synodical' used by the ancients to describe a planet in close proximity to the Sun. We could quibble that Mercury is slightly over a degree from the Sun here but I think that is pedantry. Its clearly syndodical in such a close conjunction. In ancient astrology planets this close to the Sun were seen more as partaking in the power of the Sun than being weakened by it under the beams (combustion is a later medieval notion).

There is also a later school of thought that Mercury is less effected by being under the beams because it spends so much of its phase to the Sun in that condition and is the closest planet to it.

Duncan McCann has written:
About one fifth of all charts will have a retrograde Mercury. The ancient idea that retrograde planets are weak may be true for horary charts, but does not seem to apply in nativities; admittedly, I cannot recall having seen any charts of first-rate scholars with Mercury retrograde. Modern astrologers such as Rudhyar, Escobar, and Dobyns have characterised this position as introspective and intuitive. To me, the most obvious result seems to be independence of thought: the native is not trammeled by received wisdom or public opinion, and often espouses controversial ideas or causes. Examples are William Lilly; Alan Leo; Israel Regardie, magician; Christian Hahnemann, homeopath; T.H. Huxley, self-appointed propagandist for Darwin; William Laud, executed for his struggle against Puritanism; Emile Zola, forced into exile over the Dreyfus affair; the journalist W.T. Stead, imprisoned as a result of his campaign against child prostitution; Ludwig Zamenhof, inventor of Esperanto, and also of his own religion; Sir Edwin Durning-Lawrence, the first (but not, alas, the last) to claim that Shakespeare's works were not written by Shakespeare.

Combustion may also be considered among the phases. Like retrogradation, this does not seem to weaken the planet in a nativity. A close conjunction of Mercury and the Sun is found in the charts of Thomas Edison, J.S. Mill, and Ludwig Wittgenstein - all possessed of powerful intellects. It is worth noting that these all have the superior conjunction; the only celebrities I have noticed with the inferior conjunction are Kings James I of England and Louis XVI of France, neither of whom possessed much sense. From the The Traditional Astrologer Magazine, issue 18, March 1999


All this is not to say I think being under the beams has no effect here.
Even when not damaging ( as in cazimi) it always has a connection to secrecy and hidden matters. We could interpret that here as indicating the excessive secrecy of Jimmy Page in regards his personal life or yet another indicator of his strong personal interest in the occult.

Moreover, this mercury has no dignity in Capricorn and is therefore peregrine. Its also disposited by an out of sect , Rx Saturn in the 8th.

Now to your point about Mercury being Rx is quite correct if we accept medieval western astrology as the authentic stream of astrology in all matters. I personally question this in a number of ways I will not fully explore here.

In terms of retrograde planets we have two traditional approaches in conflict here.

In medieval and renaissance astrology a Rx planet is a serious debility weakening it. Hence an astrologer following this approach might looking for learning difficulties or communication problems in a Mercury Rx in such a nativity.

In contrast in Indian astrology retrograde planets are seen as powerful but not necessarily negative. In Indian horoscopes retrograde planets acquire special power and effects while in retrograde motion at the time of birth. These are known as `Vakri planets' in Indian astrology. Whenever a planet starts in a motion other than the normal course, it is believed to yield unusual and often erratic effects. However, some Indian astrologers teach that planets can work positively or negatively when Rx depending on whether they are eseentially dignified to begin with.

However, like there western counterparts Indian astrologers would not advise signing a contract while Mercury is Rx due to the unpredictable association of RX planets. The one planet that always seems to get a negative interpretation even in Indian astrology is Saturn.

I personally think the Indian approach gives us another perspective on Rx planets that is worth exploring. Personally I find the medieval approach too too black and white to be genuinely insightful in chart delineation.

Both these approaches stem from a common hellenistic root so my current interest is looking more into that outlook.

So getting back to Jimmy Page is clearly a complex situation in assessing his Mercury!

Mark
Last edited by Mark on Sat Dec 29, 2012 11:22 pm, edited 3 times in total.
As thou conversest with the heavens, so instruct and inform thy minde according to the image of Divinity William Lilly

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Damon wrote:
In the temperament or in the Moon and temperament thread, if I recall well, someone quoted an author who explained why combustion doesnt make sense. Cause then the Moon would be weak in a full moon and it is not.
Ill see if I can find out. Barbault also speaks against combustion
Barbault was simply rearticulating a tradition in French astrology going back to Jean Baptiste Morin in the 17th century.

http://www.skyscript.co.uk/morin.html

Our moderator Tom who wrote that piece is an authority on Morin and has long accepted Morin's argument rejecting combustion/under the beams.

I dont go as far as this myself. I still think combustion is an extremely useful tool. Its part of a wider dimension of looking at planetary phase which includes things like oriental/occidental of the Sun, inferior/superior conjunction, under the beams and retrograde motion.

Combustion is actually one of the oldest ideas in astrology and can be dated back to ancient Egyptian star lore that long predates horoscopic astrology.

http://www.skyscript.co.uk/heritage/egyptians.html

I do think combustion can be used in too crude a way but I dont want to see the baby thrown out with the bathwater.

Deborah Houlding has long been a powerful advocate of combustion as part of the wider concept planetary phase. I suppose the question is how r we approach this in natal as opposed to horary.

Mark
Last edited by Mark on Sat Dec 29, 2012 11:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.
As thou conversest with the heavens, so instruct and inform thy minde according to the image of Divinity William Lilly

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mark,
thanks for articulating some of your personal thoughts here on a few topics that seem to pop up and not be addressed directly.. retrograde planets and combustion and how these are viewed differently depending on ones orientation are indeed an interesting conversation from my own point of view that suggest the need for an open mind on their interpretation. thanks for expressing publicly some of my own thinking on this topic..

i want to add that another topic dear to my heart that generally always gets ignored if it is even noticed, is the idea of stationary planets and the special meaning they may offer to a better understanding of a chart.. in jimmy pages chart, mars is very much a stationary planet about to go direct, but the settings on most astrologers computers, including the one that astro.com use is so tight as to force it into the retro category when mars is about to go direct in another day.. this i think requires some special consideration given it's rulership over the ascendant here.. at any rate, i appreciate your comments to damons questioning..

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Hi James,

How totally sloppy of me! I missed that Jimmy Page had a Rx (or stationary) Mars on that chart link provided by Damon! Its funny as this means I would give it a very similar interpretation with or without the inclusion of Uranus. Like Mercury in the chart Mars is shouting out for attention and I would therefore delineate such a planet to be rather prominent and unconventional in its expression.

I agree this is a very interesting topic. Like the lunar nodes its one of those subjects where traditional western and Indian astrology contradict each other somewhat. I am keen to research the Indian and Greek views further on retrogradation. However, I also want to build up research files with nativities with each planet Rx or stationary.

This chart is a good starting point on both Saturn and Mars so thanks to Damon.

Mark
As thou conversest with the heavens, so instruct and inform thy minde according to the image of Divinity William Lilly

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James_M wrote:
I want to add that another topic dear to my heart that generally always gets ignored if it is even noticed, is the idea of stationary planets and the special meaning they may offer to a better understanding of a chart.. in jimmy pages chart, mars is very much a stationary planet about to go direct, but the settings on most astrologers computers, including the one that astro.com use is so tight as to force it into the retro category when mars is about to go direct in another day.. this i think requires some special consideration given it's rulership over the ascendant here.. at any rate, i appreciate your comments to damons questioning..
I know you have tried to raise this on the forum before a few times. I think the problem is threefold:

Firstly, as you point out most astrologers simply accept what their software says meaning that we have an incredibly tight defintion of when a planet moves from stationary to Rx and Rx to stationary. Its rather like my topic on cazimi vs synodical planets. I think the orb allowed for this is far too narrow in renaissance astrology. This topic needs more natal research.

Secondly, there is really not much to go on in regards traditional sources on stationary as opposed to Rx planets. What does a stationay planet really mean in contrast to a Rx one? The reason for this is probably that the ephemerides in this period were often not accurate enough for a precise demarcation between stationary and direct or retrograde motion.

Thirdly, this topic requires a lot of research into real nativities and hardly anyone has looked into this topic. I think this is what we need to do more of rather than just discussing this theoretically.

Mark
As thou conversest with the heavens, so instruct and inform thy minde according to the image of Divinity William Lilly

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Nice to know the chart I posted was helpful :D
By the way why was Morin so fatalistic about the prediction of his death?
What in his chart says he would die in that particular year and date and why couldnt he have done nothing about it?

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Damon wrote:
By the way why was Morin so fatalistic about the prediction of his death? What in his chart says he would die in that particular year and date and why couldn't he have done nothing about it?
I would take all Morin questions to Tom on the traditional forum. Morin is a specialist area of his.

Mark
As thou conversest with the heavens, so instruct and inform thy minde according to the image of Divinity William Lilly