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Natal Indications of Unfaithfulness or Infidelity

 
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StellarTiggy



Joined: 17 May 2011
Posts: 306

Posted: Wed Feb 20, 2013 3:03 am    Post subject: Natal Indications of Unfaithfulness or Infidelity Reply with quote

Hello all,

I suppose we can segregate the inclination to unfaithfulness from committing to the act, but how exactly can you tell these two apart while looking at a chart?

The closest I've come to answering my own question is reading about natal Venus-Mars conjunction in double-bodied signs and lustful signs. I do know someone who has (Libra Rising) Venus and Mars conjunct in the same degree in the 6th house in Pisces, Venus applying steadily. The chart is nocturnal. At first it jumped out at me that this person is likely an adulterer and then I said to myself:

What about the fact that it's a nocturnal chart?
What about the fact that Venus is exalted?
What about the fact that it's in the 6th (not in an angle)?
What about the fact that Moon (Taurus), Mercury (Capricorn), Jupiter (Capricorn), and Saturn (Scorpio) all witness the conjunction by SEXTILE or TRINE from different houses?
What about the fact that this person's Lot of Fortune is in a different house, and the "new chart" it creates does not necessarily implicate unchaste behavior (but I guess the conjunction is still there)?

My biggest issue here is that the conjunction is not an ignorable part of the chart because Venus is the Ascendant ruler and Mars is the descendant ruler.

Please give me your opinions and experiences on unfaithfulness in the natal chart.
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zoomaster



Joined: 31 Jul 2010
Posts: 27
Location: Hyderabad, India

Posted: Wed Feb 20, 2013 8:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

edit

Last edited by zoomaster on Sun Jul 13, 2014 6:50 am; edited 1 time in total
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StellarTiggy



Joined: 17 May 2011
Posts: 306

Posted: Fri Feb 22, 2013 7:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

zoomaster wrote:
I would argue that you are being too literal in your approach.

For the ancients, "unfaithfulness" and "infidelity" referred more to a voracious sexual appetite rather than literally to cheating on one's wife.

A conjunct Venus and Mars almost always indicates those who "like to play the game" and by that I mean the necessary deception, guile, and sociopathic "sexiness" that is required to win lovers and enjoy constant sexual satisfaction.

In the sixth, obviously, the native's sexual encounters happen generally with people of lower status, or people the native encounters through work or service, or even literally with people who serve (waiters, retail workers, etc.)

The attending planets casting sextiles and trines to these planets only intensifies the frequency and ease by which the native achieves these sexual conquests.

Venus as the ruler of the ascendant and posited in the sixth in Pisces would indicate to me that perhaps the native is her/himself a servant of some sort. Mars as ruler of the descendant would indicate that the spouse or real lover, the 'soulmate' of the native if you will, is also in service, (in the ancient way of putting, in a lower class) and that the native's spouse participates in the sexual adventures of the native.

Then again, I am speculating and would have to see the whole chart.

I hope that you are using Whole Sign Houses.


Hi,

Thank you greatly for your reply. Your analysis looks spot-on. In fact, Maternus tells us at least TWICE that Venus conjunct Mars in the 6th produces adulterers, combined with Saturn brings us people who visit prostitutes. I didn't understand the reference until you told me "those of lower class" and a prostitute fits that description quite perfectly. One question I have is, more to the "modern day" lifestyle approach, how much can we bet on it? I mean I HAVE seen things happen spot on from the delineation in the books, but I am wondering about the times this does not necessary occur? For example, a person may have an indication of violent death in their chart (word for word from the book) but can we bet on these interpretations to definitely manifest?

I do use Whole Sign houses.

Mars would be in its joy in the 6th while Venus has dignity being exalted. I wonder how this person would act when they get into a serious relationship?

I'm also curious now about how the Venus-Mars opposition plays out for a person? Would it also indicate an unquenchable sexual appetite? What if the opposition occurs on the angles (like above)? What about the dignity of the planets, if Venus were in Taurus and Mars in Scorpio for example? What if there were other planets casting their light, like Jupiter in Virgo, Saturn in Pisces?
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zoomaster



Joined: 31 Jul 2010
Posts: 27
Location: Hyderabad, India

Posted: Sat Feb 23, 2013 4:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

edit

Last edited by zoomaster on Sun Jul 13, 2014 6:51 am; edited 1 time in total
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StellarTiggy



Joined: 17 May 2011
Posts: 306

Posted: Sun Feb 24, 2013 2:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Crazy question. Can the Venus-Mars conjunction indicate being cheated ON, rather than necessarily cheating on your own partner?
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waybread



Joined: 05 Mar 2009
Posts: 965
Location: Canada

Posted: Mon Feb 25, 2013 5:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Why do you want to know? If your concern is with a particular individual, I think natal astrology is a dubious way to make such a determination.

I think people with a lively Mars-Venus interaction with Jupiter in the mix are more likely to have multiple partners, but astrology doesn't tell us, just for example, what sorts of cultural or religious values might dampen or encourage a person's proclivities. Some people might have a one-off affair with a particular person, but this wouldn't mean they are congenitally "unfaithful."
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StellarTiggy



Joined: 17 May 2011
Posts: 306

Posted: Mon Feb 25, 2013 7:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

waybread wrote:
Why do you want to know? If your concern is with a particular individual, I think natal astrology is a dubious way to make such a determination.

I think people with a lively Mars-Venus interaction with Jupiter in the mix are more likely to have multiple partners, but astrology doesn't tell us, just for example, what sorts of cultural or religious values might dampen or encourage a person's proclivities. Some people might have a one-off affair with a particular person, but this wouldn't mean they are congenitally "unfaithful."


Hi waybread,

The concern isn't with one individual. The post is open to examples of all sorts--that concern adultery. The example I used is a classic example that several Hellenistic Astrology authors mention in their books when they discuss adultery. I don't appreciate this question, "why do you want to know?" because this is a forum and the majority of posts here are questions, are you going to go to each and every one of them asking why they want to know? LOL!

In addition, your opinion about someone having a one-off affair and then never doing it again, or whatever you're implying, isn't relevant here because once a person commits adultery they are officially considered an adulterer. I believe that's how it works. Sheesh.
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waybread



Joined: 05 Mar 2009
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Location: Canada

Posted: Mon Feb 25, 2013 6:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Oh, gosh, StellarTiggy, I must be reading too much Maeve Binchy. Adultery in her world comes in many different permutations.

I don't think "adultery" is like losing one's virginity. If a married woman slept with someone besides her husband for one night 20 years ago, does she wear a scarlet letter A the rest of her life? Then what happens with various living-together arrangements today? What about couples who agree up front to have an "open marriage" (polyamory)? What are the implications for gay people in places that prohibit same-sex marriage I just don't see the issue today in stark terms.

In ancient times, fidelity was equally complicated. Slave-owning (as you know) was widespread, and men often kept slaves for sexual purposes. Sex by senior males with slave boys, students, or young military recruits was shockingly (to me) common. Girls or women, found out-of-doors without a chaperone, were considered fair game to opportunistic males.

So if we wish to focus on Hellenistic astrologers, maybe a good place to start is with what adultery meant to them in their historical context. Legally married people having sex with one another outside of marriage?

If so, then we have to reinterpret their meanings in society today.
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StellarTiggy



Joined: 17 May 2011
Posts: 306

Posted: Mon Feb 25, 2013 8:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Oh, gosh, StellarTiggy, I must be reading too much Maeve Binchy. Adultery in her world comes in many different permutations.


I don't know who that is.

Quote:
I don't think "adultery" is like losing one's virginity.


Adultery has nothing in common with losing virginity except that both acts involve sex.

Quote:
If a married woman slept with someone besides her husband for one night 20 years ago, does she wear a scarlet letter A the rest of her life?


What's a scarlet letter A? If you're asking whether she'll carry the "act" with her for the rest of her life the answer is yes. Same thing with a married man. Once someone has committed adultery they are an adulterer. Believe it or not, keeping it in your pants is much easier than you think.

Quote:
In ancient times, fidelity was equally complicated. Slave-owning (as you know) was widespread, and men often kept slaves for sexual purposes. Sex by senior males with slave boys, students, or young military recruits was shockingly (to me) common. Girls or women, found out-of-doors without a chaperone, were considered fair game to opportunistic males.


I don't believe it was complicated, but I do agree that it happened very often.

Quote:
So if we wish to focus on Hellenistic astrologers, maybe a good place to start is with what adultery meant to them in their historical context. Legally married people having sex with one another outside of marriage?


I'm not sure if you realize you are in the "Traditional/Ancient Astrology" section.

For the question, I would say yes and also not just sex but emotional affiliation that crosses boundaries or has intent. You know what I'm saying? Someone "planning" or "wanting" to cheat is considered bad behavior.
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waybread



Joined: 05 Mar 2009
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Posted: Mon Feb 25, 2013 8:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Stellar, on any board it is important to specify the meaning of ambiguous terms. This is especially important in referring to astrologers of the past, who may have discussed social relations that are very different from our norms today. This also gets complicated when we deal with works in translation.

I didn't intend for my allusions to be ambiguous, but let me translate. Maeve Binchy was an Irish fiction writer who wrote a lot about complicated relationships. The scarlet letter A refers to Hawthorne's novel, The Scarlet Letter, a very famous case of adultery in American literature.

I take it your allusion is to New Testament prosciptions against lusting in one's heart.

Speaking of this novel, you seem to take a puritanical attitude towards sex, which is fine. My point is simply that I don't think the Hellenistic astrologers can answer your OP question.

Perhaps others on this thread can address it from the perspective of subsequent traditional astrologers.
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StellarTiggy



Joined: 17 May 2011
Posts: 306

Posted: Mon Feb 25, 2013 10:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Stellar, on any board it is important to specify the meaning of ambiguous terms. This is especially important in referring to astrologers of the past, who may have discussed social relations that are very different from our norms today. This also gets complicated when we deal with works in translation.


I don't understand why you're saying this is ambiguous. I opened this thread so that people can post traditional significations of infidelity. And also, if you read traditional authors, you'll see that they specify what they mean--for example--exceptional lust, or running around with prostitutes, or being a prostitute, or incest, or being unhappy with ones partner, etc...

Quote:
I take it your allusion is to New Testament prosciptions against lusting in one's heart.


No. Most people would find it objectionable behavior to find out that ones partner is thinking of having sexual intercourse or wanting to have sexual intercourse, or a romantic relationship with someone else.

Quote:
Speaking of this novel, you seem to take a puritanical attitude towards sex, which is fine. My point is simply that I don't think the Hellenistic astrologers can answer your OP question.


My attitude is irrelevant. I was setting a standard for the thread. Hellenistic Astrologers can generally answer my question I just really need them to take a look at this thread and have the motivation to type up a response.
[/quote]
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Paul
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Posted: Mon Feb 25, 2013 10:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

waybread wrote:
My point is simply that I don't think the Hellenistic astrologers can answer your OP question.


Hi Waybread

It's probably worth pointing out that the Hellenistic tradition is just one possible tradition which is included under the larger umbrella of 'traditional astrology' - we could go to, say, Lilly in the 17th century either, or Bonatti in the 13th, or to the Arab astrologers of the earlier medieval period.

What we may notice during this span of time stretching dozens of centuries is that the idea of interpreting infidelity may feature amongst the varying traditions with some things in common and with the assumption that they are always revised or interpreted by the 'modern' astrologers of their day.

In today's world that can be us - if we want it to be. We may not.

What is interesting is that I have looked at some of these signatures and actually a lot of them, sometimes despite my better 'preference', actually appear to work. In other words whilst I might initially scoff anything so obviously deterministic it's best to first see if it doesn't actually work. I've noticed it very often does, however, I've also seen some examples where you might expect a text book case but it doesn't appear with the native, instead that signature is taken up in some other way. For example with the 6th house mentioned here I know one guy who is involved in local politics, is basically a multi millionaire and married "beneath his class" as it were. He is an old man now and is still very committed to his wife as far as anyone can tell - as much as any of us can know. However I suspect that this 6th house theme played out in this way rather than in anything else.

In reality even in some of the hellenistic texts we don't get a prescription of X + Y = adulterer, we often see several similar signatures indicating the native may be tempted or desirous of adultery or, depending on the signature, some other sexual immorality like "knowledge of sodomy" or some such. Clearly we have changed our social understanding of this, but the question is whether the astrology has changed or not.

In my experience the same signatures, almost depressingly, that appeared then seem to show up today as well, though clearly our conclusions which are in part based upon social norms have changed. In the case of the knowledge of sodomy I know several gay men and have their natal charts and often recognise several obvious signatures for those who, as is often put, "do not do onto women what they ought to". I think even in later traditions a lot of this refers back directly or indirectly to Dorotheus but that it is presented somewhat faithfully either means it was transcribed with little practical usage by the author as to testing the claims, or that many of the significations worked int he medieval period (for example) as worked in the hellenistic one. That does not mean that they'll work today, but clearly sexual norms have changed through time.

I would never 'predict' someone was gay based on them, but it's an interesting presence all the same. For example the presence of Venus or Mars in the domicile of Mercury, or the Venus-Mars connections mentioned above, or Venus in a sign of excess or in the angle of the west or cadent from it and so on can all indicate some of the conditions for sodomy and many of the charts for gay men that I have strongly feature this, but there tends to be a curious pattern where it is better featured or more strongly featured in the charts of those who are also particularly promiscuous and so perhaps it needs to be an appetite rather than simply a lifestyle characteristic that makes it so prevalent (ie, we may update this for the modern day to some extent). No doubt however there are many straight men with the same signatures also.

Still it's interesting to observe if nothing else.
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StellarTiggy



Joined: 17 May 2011
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Posted: Mon Feb 25, 2013 11:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
I would never 'predict' someone was gay based on them, but it's an interesting presence all the same.


Hi Paul,

Just wanted to point out how I met a gay man, never guessed he was gay until he told me, got his birthtime, drew up his chart, saw an exact configuration reflecting homosexuality described by Valens, in his chart.
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waybread



Joined: 05 Mar 2009
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Posted: Tue Feb 26, 2013 4:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Stellar, I've read the widely available Hellenistic astrologers in English translation. Obviously "traditional astrology" includes subsequent astrologers. Apart from some recently published primers in traditional astrology so far my traditional interests remain in Antiquity.

But let's use the Hellenistic astrologers to discuss the meaning of adultery in the Hellenistic world. Above, I gave several examples to explain why the term might have meant something different back then than it does today.

I am currently traveling and don't have access to my home library, but I recall Ptolemy in Tetrabiblos matter-of-factly delineating how to determine whether the native will prefer sex with boys. If we assume that the native was a married man and a slave-owner, then would this have constituted adultery or not? To his peers? To the Puritans? To us?

We can't read the answer transparently off of Tetrabiblos. Rather, we have to broaden our scope to think through the meanings of adultery, then and now.

If you read about social mores in ancient Greece, many respected men were what we today would term bisexual and polyamorous. Slavery put a very different cast upon norms of propriety. So far as I can recall from sources like Valens and Maternus (not currently to-hand,) the issue was not of adultery defined as a one-off fling, but what we today might term sexual addiction.

Even men who preferred sex with males-only might have married and fathered children as part of a societal expectation, not to mention the ways that marriage could solidify rank and property.

Paul, obviously I know astrology extends beyond the Hellenistic world! And obviously I think astrology "works" to the extent that I have devoted over 20 years to its practice and study.

Where I part company with many (not all) traditional astrologers is the degree to which I believe in astral determinism. I think a natal horoscope shows potentials and proclivities. These are always modified by things a chart doesn't show, such as whether the native lives in a strictly puritanical or permissive culture, such that those proclivities can be openly expressed or not.

Ptolemy, come to think of it, said something about a horoscope showing difficulties in the native's life, but that like a doctor prescribing a cure, some means of mitigating them. Lilly says as much in Christian Astrology, as well.
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lihin



Joined: 14 Dec 2009
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Location: Mount Kailash

Posted: Thu Feb 28, 2013 8:41 am    Post subject: Culturally restricted, negatively biased expressions Reply with quote

Good morning,

As we have discussed at some length in a prior thread, the applications of words used in the title of this thread in my humble opinion are, in the vast framework of astrology where planets have manifested similar patterns aeons before written human history, severely culturally restricted and negatively biased.

Anthropological research, comparative zoology etc. have underscored that humans are naturally neither monoandrous nor monogamous (even in the wider sequential understandings of these terms), but rather poly-androus and poly-gamous. Depending on the social order involved, Jovial concerns about inheritance and possession have at times attempted, with largely mitigated success, to impose restrictions upon the joyful unfolding of love-life inherent in Our Lady Aphrodité. The loyalty of true friendship has little or less to do with sexual exclusivity, so it appears.

Long-term statistical research in Central Europe has recently confirmed that, of 10 children born in official wedlock, 2 to 3 on the average are not biological offspring of their legal fathers but rather "Kuckuckskinder".

May one suggest that, in astrological analyses, one might attempt to examine matters of the 'night sect' Séléné, Aphrodité and Arès on their on terms and values, not muddled by Jovial moralistic imputations? In reading ancient Hellenistic interpretations, one often finds realistic descriptions of behaviours. Of course one should bear in mind that Hellenistic (and Brahman) civilisations were patriarchal.

Best regards,

lihin
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