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The temperament revised

 
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damon



Joined: 23 Sep 2012
Posts: 419

Posted: Thu Dec 27, 2012 12:45 pm    Post subject: The temperament revised Reply with quote

Hi
I have been reading the thread about temperament,a very interesting one.
I immediately checked two people whom I suspected of strong phlegm, Liam Gallagher and Prince William.
I always thought Liam used his agression to cover his sensitivity,those dead fish eyes tell a lot. It turns out he has a pisces Moon.Birthtime isnt available but it looks like we are dealing with a choleric phlegmatic.
As for the prince,he always has that low energy air about him, the dark rings round the eyes, it turns out he is a phlegmatic choleric with that cancer moon in new moon.
However I was surprised that two rather extrovert cousins of mine, a pilot and a former swimmer now a university teacher rated respectively as melancholic and phlegmatic. It just doesnt fit.
And my cleaning woman,a positive talkative girl is strongly phlegmatic. I dont know what to make of this Confused
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damon



Joined: 23 Sep 2012
Posts: 419

Posted: Thu Dec 27, 2012 12:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I had another look at Toms post and this may explain. The swimmer,a phlegmatic is known to have many inferiority comnplexes, yet this isnt immediately visible.So i take it it is his phlegmatic side coming up behind the extrovert Aries Sun.He has Scorpio rising and Mars conjunct Saturn in Cancer, which explains his university teaching and lectures all over the world on Dyslexia and similar stuff.

As for the pilot I still dont know.And the cleaner,maybe it was the phlegm that led her to end up a cleaner,but you wouldnt guess looking at her colorful face and bright eyes.

Choleric is the fire temperament and it is related to Mars. It is hot and dry. Think of the warrior, or in contemporary society, the athlete. It is the temperament of action and of bringing about a change. Keep in mind we are not simply talking about temperature and humidity. All the descriptive words may be used as metaphors such as “hot head” or “cold shoulder” or “dry sense of humor.”

Melancholic is the earth temperament and is associated with farmers. Its ruling planet is Saturn. It is cold and dry. It is not necessarily depressed in the modern sense of that word, although it can be. Melancholics are persistent once motivated. They are also capable of great feats of memory. Find someone with a great memory and you’ll probably find he or she has a strong melancholic streak.

Sanguine is the air temperament and is associated with scholars. It is hot and moist. Sanguine types are known for their social skills and easy movement among people. People may flock to and gawk at the famous athlete, but they will like the sanguine type.

Phlegmatic is the water temperament and is ruled by the Moon. This is the most difficult temperament to work with. More on that below. If you have an acquaintance that is relatively unmotivated until he or she “feels like it,” they are probably strongly phlegmatic. They are often voted the most likely to end up alcoholic or drug addicted and if they don’t go to that extreme, they won’t be far from it. This represents the desire nature, i.e. a person motivated usually be desire and not by self improvement or responsibility.

As stated above two or more temperaments usually dominate. This is because we determine temperament by looking at several factors and combining them one way or the other to reach a broad composite. This is not precision work. Close is usually good enough. So one can be Choleric/melancholic or sanguine/phlegmatic. This usually means they exhibit the qualities of one or the other at different times or it can be blended.

The biggest problem is divorcing temperament from personality. By “personality” I mean those characteristics of the individual that are readily seen by others. The “class clown” is what we see. The terrible depression or low self esteem is hidden by it. It is possible to be jocular and melancholic if Mercury dominates Saturn for example. It is also true that some people wear their temperament on their sleeve, say, a choleric with Mars rising. The point is to determine the temperament without regard to what we know of the native. We need to force ourselves to be objective. John McEnroe’s sanguine temperament is ideally suited for the announcer’s booth, but what we saw and remember is his hyper-active Mars on the tennis court.

Temperament can be used quite effectively to determine a suitable profession. I’m thinking of a friend of my son’s who graduated from a prestigious university with a degree in engineering. He is an outgoing, assertive, athletic individual with a great sense of humor. I remember saying to my son that I couldn’t see him as an engineer at all. The engineers I work with are prissy, introverted, and think their wives should come with a manual that they could memorize and implement in order to get them to function better (they are said to have one of the highest divorce rates). Engineers don’t understand the difference between an erogenous zone and a check valve. They are melancholic types. True to form this young man, although he graduated near the top of his class has yet to practice engineering and went into sales and is quite successful to boot.

The main purpose of determining temperament is learning the best way to direct the life in profession as well as in other areas. Fire temperaments will usually end up well as fire rises naturally. Melancholics need a push, but like a boulder going downhill, once it starts it is difficult to stop. Phlegmatics are a problem. And here the moderns, once they have risen from their swoon, realize traditional astrology is not politically correct. Some people just have a harder time with life than others regardless of circumstances. I can’t help but think of young men who become instantly wealthy and famous by dint of their athletic prowess who then waste no time in throwing it all away. We all make mistakes, but some people never tire of it.

John Frawley explains the problems with the phlegmatic temperament in an old Astrologer’s Apprentice article on Janice Joplin. (No. 15). Janice is strongly phlegmatic, he tells us she needs the presence of a strong malefic in her chart or else she ends up just another anonymous dead junkie. Drop the anonymity and the result was the same. Janice did have a strong angular Saturn ruling her ASC. After all she did sing the blues. The most striking feature in her chart was the negative mutual reception between Saturn in Gemini (detriment of Jupiter) and Jupiter in Cancer (detriment of Saturn). Saturn as ASC ruler represented the depression in her life. Jupiter in his exaltation in the 5th house represented the excess. The mutual reception represented one feeding the other. The depression fed the excess and the excess fed the depression and the cycle continued until her death. A strong sanguine would not have reacted to the configuration that way or a strong choleric. She was phlegmatic. She gave into her desires.


Temperament can be used to help with interpersonal relationships. The strong sanguine is not going to remotely understand the strong melancholic and vice versa. But one who has sanguine as slightly dominating might be attracted to an individual who has melancholy in slight predominance. They will compliment each other rather than oppose each other. This astrological match making is far more likely to produce positive results than “synastry” alone. It will work with professional relationships as well as sexual relationships and friendships.
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damon



Joined: 23 Sep 2012
Posts: 419

Posted: Fri Dec 28, 2012 3:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi
Is it the almuten or asc ruler sign that determines temperament ,or the planet itself?
eg: Mercury Aquarius: is it sanguine(aquarius) or melancholic(mercury)?

Thanks
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Mark
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Joined: 30 Sep 2005
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Location: Edinburgh, Scotland

Posted: Sun Dec 30, 2012 1:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Damon wrote:
Quote:
Is it the almuten or asc ruler sign that determines temperament ,or the planet itself? eg: Mercury Aquarius: is it sanguine(aquarius) or melancholic(mercury)?


Temperament calculation is really quite complicated and at times a contradictory topic in the tradition. If I attempted to reply to you fully it I would need to post an article length reply and I have no time at present.

To give a very general summary ( by no means definitive or uncontroversial) In temperament analysis we look at all the following:

-Ascendant Sign by quality: e.g Capricorn rising is cold and dry.

-Ascendant Ruler-By essential nature, phase and sign
(Some authorities like Montulmo propose a separate check for domicile ruler and Almuten. Greenbaum follows this approach)

-Planet on ASC(?)

-Aspects to ASC-By Planetary nature +Sign placement

-Moon by sign quality

-Moon by phase to the Sun

-Solar Season

There are differences of emphasis but the planets are the dynamic agents in the horoscope and so should be weighted more powerfully than signs.

Astrologers disagree on how much weight should be given to the essential nature of planets vs their phase. Some see the whole nature of the planet alterred while others see it as a minor modification.

Astrologers disagree on whether points like nodes or fixed stars on the ASC, Moon or Ruling planet can alter their nature. Its probably easier to exclude these until you have more experience in this yourself.

Some astrologers follow Ptolemy and assign sanguine, choleric etc to each quarter of the chart. Others ignore this in temperament calculation.
To recap in standard medieval/renaissance astrology the signs have the following permanent qualities:

Air-Warm and Moist=Sanguine
Fire-Hot and Dry=Choleric
Water-Cold and Moist=Phlegmatic
Earth-Cold and Dry=Melancholic

Hence the air signs like Aquarius are always warm and moist -so sanguine in nature. This derives from the physician and astrologer Galen who lived in the 2nd Century CE. It may seem a bit odd that Aquarius is described as 'warm' in temperament analysis. The sign was seen as wet in ancient astrology but most astrologers like Ptolemy also described Aquarius as cold since it related to the winter season in the northern hemisphere. It is ruled by Saturn after all. This is one reason why I dont use the standard approach to sign qualities adopted in medieval/renaissance temperament analysis.

However, although planets have essential nature this is modified somewhat by their phase to the Sun. For example, look at Saturn. Its essential nature is cold and dry. However, following conjunction with the Sun and in its oriental phase (rising visibly before the Sun in the morning Sky) it is more warm and moist. Its essential nature is still to be cold and dry but this is alterred somewhat in this phase.

The idea is that as the planet separates from the Sun it is moist in a spring like phase. In its next summer like quarter it is gradually warmer. Eventually, after opposition Saturn becomes progressively drier. This is important since as a natural malefic Saturn is inherently destructive. However, it is more likely to express that nature when it becomes excessively dry in the occidental phase. Hence Saturn is more malefic in occidental phase since its innate malefic nature is more pronounced.

All the planets have their nature modified by phase to the Sun so you need to study this to understand this both in temperament analysis and delineation generally.

Keep in mind temperament was largely used in medical astrology. Temperament is about a very basic understanding of psychological disposition but as Tom often says this is 'rough work'. There are other techniques for more detailed psychological interpretation. You also need to understand there were differences in medieval and renaissance astrology on how this was calculated.

Your not going to learn the full approach unless you read some sources off the forum. Amongst those writing on temparament in traditional medieval/renaissance astrology today I can think of three astrologers that come to mind:

Temparament: Astrology's Forgotten Key-By Dorian Greenbaum

The Tradition (online) Two articles by Luis Ribeiro

The Real Astrology Applied-By John Frawley

I strongly recommend you buy a copy of Greenbaum's book if you dont have it already. Its extremely detailed and looks at the full history and underlying logic of astrological temperament. Greenbaum fully explains her approach.

Ribeiro's articles would be my next choice as they are very detailed.

Frawley just has a chapter on temperament in his book but its a bit brief. Its largely based on Lilly's approach.

An alternative view which is derived largely from Ptolemy is provided by Margherita Fiorello on this article in her blog.

http://heavenastrolabe.net/some-notes-about-temperaments/

I really like Margherita's basic approach adopted from Ptolemy since it gives little emphasis to the signs and much more to the planets ruling them. I think trying to calculate temperament adding up planets and their placement by sign quality is where a lot of temperament analysis gets bogged down.

However, I strongly recommend you start with Greenbaum's book first to give you a broader overview.

There are a lot of astrological topics where you can get all you need free online. IMHO this isn't one of them.

Mark
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damon



Joined: 23 Sep 2012
Posts: 419

Posted: Mon Dec 31, 2012 1:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks Mark
I only saw your response today Thumbs up
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damon



Joined: 23 Sep 2012
Posts: 419

Posted: Mon Dec 31, 2012 2:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The most important planets in my chart are occidental to the Sun so Saturn is cold and dry,Jupiter wet and cold and Moon wet and cold accordingly.Anyway they are in winter signs
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damon



Joined: 23 Sep 2012
Posts: 419

Posted: Mon Dec 31, 2012 3:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Damn. It all gets more confusing when I add quadrnts.
All my planets in winter signs are in the hot/warm quadrants MC/DESc and ASC/mC.
Margueritas link is giving me a headache Confused
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Mark
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Joined: 30 Sep 2005
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Posted: Tue Jan 01, 2013 12:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Damon,

Have you also been looking at planetary phase, solar season and lunar phase? They all count in temperament calculation too.

It is a complicated subject which is why I keep plugging Dorian Greebaum's book to you.

Mark
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‘’As thou conversest with the heavens, so instruct and inform thy minde according to the image of Divinity…’’ William Lilly
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damon



Joined: 23 Sep 2012
Posts: 419

Posted: Tue Jan 01, 2013 2:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mark wrote:
Hi Damon,

Have you also been looking at planetary phase, solar season and lunar phase? They all count in temperament calculation too.

It is a complicated subject which is why I keep plugging Dorian Greebaum's book to you.

Mark

Yes, solar season is winter,lunar phase first, planetary phase looks like winter too as they all are in winter signs,or is it position in relation to the Sun youre referring to(occidental/oriental)?
update:I see : if Sun is in Capricorn and Saturn is in Aquarius then Saturn is in first phase,if it were in Aries it would be 2nd phase or Sanguine?

I as thinking ,an Aquarius with Leo rising is a Leo born in Winter-not the ideal time for a Leo. Imagine a King all glitter and wearing jewels talking before a crowd and suddenly starts raining.Thats how a winter Leo feels. The same approach can be used for other combos

thanks
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astralwanderer



Joined: 20 Dec 2012
Posts: 156
Location: Southwest England

Posted: Tue Jan 01, 2013 5:22 pm    Post subject: Dorian Greebaum's book Reply with quote

Quote:
It is a complicated subject which is why I keep plugging Dorian Greebaum's book to you.


This is an excellent book - I've just got hold of a copy and it is very good introduction to this topic.

Ed
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damon



Joined: 23 Sep 2012
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Posted: Tue Jan 08, 2013 12:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

While looking at some public figures it occurred to me while watching Sky news that presenter Dermot Murnaghan is a Capricorn with Pisces Moon,like Elvis,but unlike in the Rock star,I fail to notice any strong signs of phlegm both in his looks or his mannerisms

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=60tCmgHkp90
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Mark
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Posted: Tue Jan 08, 2013 11:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

IMHO You cannot have a serious discussion of temperament without a timed chart.

Mark
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damon



Joined: 23 Sep 2012
Posts: 419

Posted: Wed Jan 09, 2013 11:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mark wrote:
IMHO You cannot have a serious discussion of temperament without a timed chart.

Mark

maybe but season and Moon alone mean 4 points for phlegmatic, thats pretty strong.
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