Hi
Many have criticized Alice Bayley and Theosofic society in the past,yet, I was surprised that her little 1949 book on Destiny of nations is so accurate.
The symbolism of the ASC or soul sign as she called it, became obvious over the past decades.
Cancer-ASC Aquarius Holland became very Aquarian as of the 1960s, and the UK very Gemini,with all those pop bands and youth culture.
In 1949 you couldnt see that coming. Nobody would think of Holland as an Aquarian country in those days.
What do you think of her work?

Thanks

Damon wrote:

Hi
Many have criticized Alice Bayley and Theosofic society in the past,yet, I was surprised that her little 1949 book on Destiny of nations is so accurate.
The symbolism of the ASC or soul sign as she called it, became obvious over the past decades.
Cancer-ASC Aquarius Holland became very Aquarian as of the 1960s, and the UK very Gemini,with all those pop bands and youth culture.
In 1949 you couldnt see that coming. Nobody would think of Holland as an Aquarian country in those days.
What do you think of her work?

Thanks

I haven't studied esoteric astrology in much depth although I do know an astrologer that works this way. Its not personally, my kind of thing. Bailey is quite a controversial character with her attitudes to race and what I can only describe as her anti-semitism. Similar to The Theosophists she claimed inspiration from a spirit guide/master. She was clearly a significant influence on modern new age thought with her millenarian ideas.

One thing worth noting is that Bailey completely revisions the actual meaning of the signs and their rulers. So you cannot approach her view of signs using conventional western astrology. This was due to what she believed were the teachings of her spirit guide Djwhal Khul.

Take a look at the astrological table in this Wikipedia link:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alice_Bailey

From Wikipedia:

Esoteric astrology's system of planetary rulerships differs from that of conventional astrology, involves planets not conventionally used, and replaces the house system with a system of crosses with highly individualized meanings and multiple levels of interpretation. Esoteric astrology incorporates various elements of esotericism related to astrology and theory of Seven Rays.

Here is a free link to an online version of Alice Bailey's book-Esoteric Astrology.

http://www.light-weaver.com/astrology/toc.html

Mark

Yes I was aware of the controversies but you must look at it from the context of the times.It was the age of Eugenics and other racial prejudices typical of Pluto in Cancer.
Still I am surprised at the accuracy regarding national signs

Here is a free download of the book:

http://bailey.it/testi-inglese/The-Dest ... ations.pdf

I notice in Esoteric astrology Bailey refer to the signs as 'constellations'. Plus my solar Fire software has a sidereal ayanamsa called 'Djwhal Khul'. The ayanamsa seems much larger than other sidereal zodiacs at about 28+ degrees difference from the tropical zodiac.

So when you discuss the sign associations of countries above tropicalists will be assigning the following sign in zodiacal order.

Mark

Damon wrote:

It was the age of Eugenics and other racial prejudices typical of Pluto in Cancer.

Although basically tropical in outlook myself I think its worth investigating such statements and examining what actualy occurred with Pluto in Cancer sidereally compared to its time in tropical Cancer.

Using the sidereal zodiac (Krishnamurti ayanamsa) Pluto entered Cancer in August 1932. Pluto had its ingress in sidereal Leo in October 1952.

Events Occurring:

-The Soviet/Ukranian famine of 1932-1933-Estimated 6-8 million deaths
-Creation of state of Saudi Arabia (1932)
-The rise to power of Hitler and the Nazis (1933)
-Spanish Civil War (1936-1939)
-Outbreak of Sino-Japanese War (1937)
-WWII (1939-1945)
-First Atomic bomb Test/Bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki (1945)
-The Soviet control of Eastern Europe/Berlin Airlift/Iron Curtain era (1948)
-The creation of Apartheid South Africa (1948)
-The creation of Israel (1948)
-Outbreak of Korean war (1950)

In contrast Pluto had its ingress in Tropical Cancer in May 1914 and Leo in August 1938.

Events occurring:

-WWI (1914-1918)
-The Armenian Genocide (1915)
-Easter Uprising In Ireland (1916)
-Russian Revolution -Bolshevik seizure of power (1917)
-End of the Ottoman Empire-Creation of Turkish republic (1918)
-End of Imperial Germany -Creation of first German republic(1918)
-End of Hapsburg Empire -Subdivision of empire into numerous new states (1918)-Austria, Hungary, Yugoslavia, Poland, Czechoslovakia.
-Spanish Flu epidemic (1918-1920) Estimated 20-50 Million deaths
-Creation of the League of Nations (1919)
-Russian famine of 1921 (5 million deaths)
-Irish Free state gains independence from the United Kingdom (1922)
-Mussolini introduced Fascist political system in Italy (1922)
-Various Soviet Republics are united by Lenin into the Soviet Union (1922)
-Great depression begins (1929)
-Stalin orders the persecution of "kulaks", causing the death of 6.5 million peasants (1929)
-Japanese Occupation of Manchuria (1931)
-Creation of state of Saudi Arabia (1932)
-The Soviet famine aka Ukrainian Genocide of 1932-1933-Estimated 6-8 million deaths
-The rise to power of the Nazis (1933)
-Outbreak of Spanish Civil War (1936)
-Outbreak of Sino-Japanese War (1937)

Mark

Good morning,

For those interested in background information on the underpinnings of Mme Helena Petrovna Blavatsky's 19th century theosophist movement and its offshoots, the 20th century metaphysician Ren? Gu?non's book Le th?osophisme : histoire d'une pseudo-religion, in English translation Theosophy: History of a Pseudo-Religion is highly recommended reading.

Astrologically, one might enquire if these movements incorporate and exemplify qualities often attributed to the malefic planet Neptune, discovered in September 1846 whilst Mme Blavatsky's career began in 1848. One might also study the connexions in Paris to Allan Kardec, 'father of spiritism', and to spiritist circles.

Best regards,

lihin

damon wrote:Yes I was aware of the controversies but you must look at it from the context of the times.It was the age of Eugenics and other racial prejudices typical of Pluto in Cancer.
Still I am surprised at the accuracy regarding national signs

There was a lot of anti-semitism around at the time, What was ironic was how Theosophy was so influenced by Kabbalism.

However since her spirit guide was presumably a nasty anti semitic we might want to assume it is at times a load of nonsense, unless of course 'spirits' are deeply ignorant and prejudiced.


This book gets into the roots of it:

http://www.sophiacentrepress.com/public ... dium=email

We seem to be working on the assumption here that Alice Bailey's ideas were synonymous with Theosophy. While there is certainly some common ground there also appear to be important differences in their approach:

http://www.blavatskyarchives.com/baileyal.htm

Mark

Mark wrote:We seem to be working on the assumption here that Alice Bailey's ideas were synonymous with Theosophy. While there is certainly some common ground there also appear to be important differences in their approach:

http://www.blavatskyarchives.com/baileyal.htm

Mark

There appear to have been lots of schisms, antagonisms, 'egos' in this movement. Probably to be expected re a number of their conceptions being rooted in paranoia. So like the modern day conspiracy theorists they eventually start imaging those in the group are their enemies or reptiles themselves.

Sometime back there was an effort to edit out Bailey's 'racism' from the books. I wonder if someone selling her stuff could be proscuted today for hate crimes were they to be sold in the original? Interesting one, this could apply to others in the movment as well of course.

I think a book needs to be written one day as to how some of the ideas/effects permeated into the Nazi's propaganda. One reason astrology is seen as the province of prejudiced, uneduated idiots in today's world, in many people's eyes. Or has this book been written already ?

Mark wrote:We seem to be working on the assumption here that Alice Bailey's ideas were synonymous with Theosophy.

And that would not seem to be a sound assumption. It seems Annie Besant finally laid down the rule and Alice Bailey and her husband were Theosophists no more! See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alice_Bailey

Geoffrey

I'm overall not happy giving a sign to a country or a person and sidereal zodiac didn't work for me, especially because i combine 'degree affinity' in synastry and mundane events a lot.

It's true the dutch aren't an aquarian country in the uranian, progressive, enlightening sense, but if you combine 'SATURN-aquarius', it makes more sense. Dutch have a history of being concerned with equality and fitting in. Cancer-ASC suggests she uses the 1815-chart (with the sun bungling on the Midheaven in Pisces, wow but it's dull to talk about angles when the date differs.)

Nobody would think of the USA as an gemini country but 'mars-gemini' (on the angles) combined makes a lot more sense, saggitarius not because the 1st house/sag is empty (for any 4th july time).

Roger030 wrote:

I'm overall not happy giving a sign to a country ...

Well its a very ancient idea in mundane astrology going back to the Bablylonians. Claudius Ptolemy in the 2nd century CE used the idea extensively in his Tetrabiblos with the known world divided into quarters and each quarter divided into astrological triplicities. The idea continued to be popular through medieval and renaissance astrology and has persisted right down to the modern era. Take a look over on the sports forum for example where Football Internationals are often assessed in part by astrological associations of the national teams.

I am not saying you have to accept the idea. It does seem simplistic due to say national charts. Still, the idea does have considerable historical credentials and immense popularity. That being said Bailey's methods seems to be based purely on psychic channeling.

Roger030 wrote:

and sidereal zodiac didn't work for me, especially because i combine 'degree affinity' in synastry and mundane events a lot.

Fair enough. I dont accept Bailey's notions myself. Plus I work tropically too. Still surely if Bailey was using a sidereal zodiac(?) the signs for countries must shift a sign ahead so the Dutch would be ruled by Pisces not Aquarius? Again the ASC would shift forward to Leo. However, dont fall into the trap of simply taking sign associations from Bailey as if they can be directly applied to conventional astrology. They have a very different meaning in Bailey's school of esoteric astrology.

Roger030 wrote:

Nobody would think of the USA as an gemini country but 'mars-gemini' (on the angles) combined makes a lot more sense, sagittarius not because the 1st house/sag is empty (for any 4th july time).

Actually many have considered the USA a gemini ruled country! For example Evangeline Adams proposed a Gemini ruled chart for July 4th 1776 and predicted WWII and the 1929 Stock Market crash based on this. In his book 'An Introduction to Political Astrology' (1951) Charles Carter proposed national charts for all countries for the first time and his chart for the USA was Gemini rising. Even to this day this chart has its supporters. For example Celeste Teal.

Having stated all that the historical support for this chart is very weak indeed:

http://members.tripod.com/tra_nations/a_usa_gem.htm

Mark