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Used Car

 
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MarkF



Joined: 22 Oct 2003
Posts: 523
Location: Outside Washington, DC

Posted: Thu Dec 16, 2004 5:56 am    Post subject: Used Car Reply with quote

I just bought a used car on e-Bay after being without my own transportation for over a year and a half, so I am really excited about it. I'll pick the car up sometime next week after I pay for it. I was wondering if the car will be all I hope for, or is it a lemon that will cost me more money in repairs right away.

I did the chart for December 16, '04 at 12:23 AM in Falls Church, Virginia, 38 N 53, 77 W 10.

The first thing I noticed is that the ASC is late, at 29 degrees of Virgo. I guess that might show that no matter what, the deal is done and there is no turning back.

The other thing that I first saw was that four planets are in the 3rd house, which I suppose shows an emphasis on transportation. My significator is Mercury in the 3rd. Would the car be shown by the 2nd house even if it's not my possession yet? I won the auction but have not paid for it yet. Legally I am obligated for it, and personally it feels like my car now, so I guess that's what matters. So if that's true then the car would be shown by Venus, also in the 3rd house. I noticed that Venus is in its detriment, so might that show that the car is damaged?

This is the part where I am stuck. Would the seller of the car be the 7th house ruler? If so, than it appears that he is on my side, as the ruler of the 7th house, Jupiter is in the ASC, and is in mutual reception by triplicity with my significator Mercury. I am sure I am missing some other key points here. I see that the Moon is kind of weak, in the 5th house. About the only thing going for it is that it's in mutual reception with Saturn in the 11th house. But they are about to be inconjunct, which I think shows a kind of disconnect. But I don't really know what to make of this.
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Anna



Joined: 05 Jun 2004
Posts: 61
Location: Sweden

Posted: Thu Dec 16, 2004 7:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dear Mark,

Have you considered Mercury Rx? I have been told two-thousend times not to bye anything that has to do with communications during M Rx.

Which did´nt stop me from bying a new cellar-phone today! :-)
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Anna



Joined: 05 Jun 2004
Posts: 61
Location: Sweden

Posted: Fri Dec 17, 2004 7:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Cell-Phone I ment! Sad
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Bulletbobb



Joined: 04 Sep 2004
Posts: 120
Location: California, USA

Posted: Sun Dec 19, 2004 3:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Watters and Zondag both have examples about cars, and both agree that the car is ruled by the third, if you are buying it as a means of transportation. If it's a status item it would go in the ninth. In your case, with half the chart packed into the third house, it is obvious that you regard it as a third house matter, and so it is.

You raise a good point about who the seller is. If you had met with the seller personally, then he would obviouly be shown by the seventh. But in a situation like an Ebay auction it's a bit more confusing. But I think I'd still use the seventh, as that ultimately shows the seller. It's like a real estate transaction, where all the negatiations are passed back and forth by the agents. The buyer and seller may never meet until the closing, yet the seller is still shown by the seventh, and the agents are transparent. (Not to mention that the lender, if there is one, is also shown by the seventh. But he, too, is transparent, and we see only the green, shown by the eighth). And here agin the chart is showing you the answer, with the ruler of the seventh in the first.

I think the Moon in the fifth is fine: that's the house of things we do for fun, and this sounds like a fun thing for you. Also the Moon in sextile the Sun, which Appleby points out is very favorable. I'm less excited by the Moons square to Mars, the ruler of the car, and perhaps the cars engine.
But Mars is strong by sign, and the Moon sextiles the Sun after the square to Mars, so perhaps it will end well.

Let us know how it turs out. Ther's nothing worse than wondering about a chart and then not knowing what happened.

BTW, I just bought a used car on the 2nd, just as Mercury turned retrograde. On the 10th I was in a four-car accident and the car was damaged. So be wary of Mercury retrograde in car charts!

Bob
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MarkF



Joined: 22 Oct 2003
Posts: 523
Location: Outside Washington, DC

Posted: Mon Dec 20, 2004 7:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have a few more thoughts on this chart.

My significator Mercury is placed in the 3rd house – transportation and the prospect of the new car. But Mercury is retrograde. A retrograde planet shows someone who is going back to the past, or redoing the same actions again. The only thing that applies here is that I will have to get my drivers license back. It expired, as I had no reason to keep it up because I had no car for the last year and a half. I also collected about $800 in traffic tickets, late fees and interest that I just paid off. So this is a bit of my past that I have to come to terms with. Another thing about Mercury is also that it is a dance with Neptune – illusions. First they were sextile, than Mercury separated from that, only to turn retrograde and come to sextile again. Once Mercury turns direct it will also be sextile with Neptune again. So I have a repeated theme of thinking that this whole business of getting a car will be easier than I assume it to be.

Mercury is disposited by Jupiter, which is the car dealer as the ruler of the 7th house. So he has the upper hand in this transaction, as anyone who buys a car has to rely on the dealer. The car dealer is in the first house, so he’s on my side and we are in mutual reception by triplicity, which is about the right level of involvement you’d want from a car dealer. Jupiter is well dignified in this chart, so his character is good. So even though I am dependent on him in this transaction, I can trust him. Jupiter in Libra is ruled by Venus, which is my second house ruler. So his main interest is my money, which again is pretty standard for a business deal. Jupiter and Mercury have recently been sextile, and will be so again when Mercury turns direct. Maybe this shows our recent contact when I won the auction on e-bay and our next meeting when I pick up the car. Both would seem to be easy contacts as shown by the sextile.

My main question was whether the car would be as described and that is mainly shown by the strength of Mars, and the reliability of the dealer as I described above. Mars is in its own sign and triplicity so I think that shows that the car is in good shape. Mars is also coming to a trine with Saturn in the 10th house. Saturn represents obstacles, and in this chart it rules the 5th house of pleasure. The 5th house seems kind of blighted to me. It is ruled by Saturn in its detriment, which is made worse by it’s being angular. The 5th house also has Neptune in it, which shows me being over optimistic over the deal. But this is where I don’t understand it. If the car is in good shape and the dealer is reliable, then where does the problem come from? On the face of it, the fifth house being ruled by a debilitated Saturn and it coming to trine with Mars – the car – does not seem very good at all. It would suggest that the pleasure of the new car is blighted and blocked by something. But it is interesting to note that Saturn is in mutual reception by ruler with the Moon, in mutual reception by exaltation with Jupiter, and by term with Venus. So these things may go a ways to help the situation out. Mutual reception implies that someone or something will help the situation out. If Jupiter represents the car dealer than maybe he will help me solve whatever the obstacle is. And Venus represents my money so maybe this won’t be a burdensome obstacle. But what does the mutual reception with the Moon specifically show? As in all charts the Moon represents me and my interest in the car. Maybe Saturn’s role here is not all that damaging as I notice that using Ptolemy’s point system of dignities and debilities, Saturn gets a +4 because of those mutual receptions, which I guess shows that these will outweigh it being in it’s detriment.

The Moon is in the 5th house showing that enjoyment is on my mind. The Moon will shortly make a square with Mars, the car. So the car with come to me, but with difficulty. Now this is where I am confused because the car seems to be in good shape, and the dealer seems to be reputable and reliable. So where could the difficulty come from? Honestly I can’t see anything from the chart that will tell me what the trouble will be? Can anyone help with this point? I know I have to get my drivers license and insurance reinstated as I described above before I can pick up the car, so perhaps this is the obstacle.

The Moon shows a happy ending I think. (Note that Venus changes signs before the Moon can catch up to it, so there is no square between them, but it’s a very close miss.) The Moon’s final aspect before changing signs is a sextile with the Sun. The Sun rules the 11th house, the house of luck. The Sun also rules the Part of Fortune. So the Moon being sextile to the Sun, which is angular but peregrine shows the prospect of an ending that is satisfactory and fortunate but not incredibly so.

Anyone want to take a stab at these points? The North Node is in the 8th house and the South Node is in the 2nd house. Does that show that my financial weakness will become the car dealer’s gain? Or what about Pluto separating from being sextile with the Moon. I ignored that because Pluto is s not angular and it is also combust the Sun.
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Debra



Joined: 20 Oct 2004
Posts: 65
Location: Boston, MA

Posted: Wed Dec 22, 2004 8:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Mark,

I was looking at the Olivia Barclay, Q.H.P. memorial site online at http://www.kokubu.com/barclay/car.htm. That might be a fun place for you to look and see how she solves the horary of her friend buying a Bentley, and why she feels cars are a 3rd house matter.

she says:

" In short, the 3rd house rules short journeys and communications. I would therefore include cars in the 3rd house because you cannot carry them about. They belong in Lilly's category of 'trotting and trudging and travelling about'."

Given what Bob mentioned, I think we may agree that the car is a 3rd house matter.

Looking at your chart, Mars the ruler of the 3rd is in the 2nd house and in Scorpio. With Mercury your ruler in the 3rd, and Jupiter the seller's ruler in the 1st, I think that this should work out well for you. It sure looks like the car is yours!

Looking, as you pointed out, at the Moon about to make a square to Mars, given that the Moon is in the 5th along with Neptune, maybe the car will not be everything you hoped it would be. This seems to be a subjective matter and doesn't seem to have anything to do with the car or the seller.
Maybe the car doesn't look exactly the way the picture led you to believe. I would guess it is nothing more than the stress associated with buying any big ticket item. As you noted, and as Bob noted, everything else seems to indicate a good purchase.

Please let us know how this turns out for you, and best of luck!
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Scorpio711



Joined: 10 Feb 2004
Posts: 37

Posted: Mon Dec 27, 2004 12:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi!

John Frawley puts a car in the second house - and he was taught by Olivia Barclay!

In Opus Astrologicum 1654 by Nicholas Culpepper, he states all moveable goods without life are second house. I suppose you could argue that once a person sits in it, it has life...!

Jacky
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MarkF



Joined: 22 Oct 2003
Posts: 523
Location: Outside Washington, DC

Posted: Fri Dec 31, 2004 7:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I finally have all of the paper work done so I can pick up the car. I had to pay about $1,000 in all - mostly traffic tickets, fees, but also insurance.

I think all of this was in the chart. The chart showed the car to be solid (still to be seen) and the dealer reputable, but had my significator Mercury retrograde and an applying square between the Moon and the car's significator. I am sure than Mercury retrograde represented me going back to clear up the debts I had occurred over traffic tickets, a suspended drivers license and canceled car insurance. The square between the Moon and Mars (the car) shows how hard it had been to actually get the car, something that still isn't done yet. There is an easy sextile between me (Mercury) and the dealer (Jupiter), which shows that the deal to buy the car was easy but the process of me actually getting it has been hard.

The next aspect the Moon makes is a bit uncertain to me. The Moon is applying to be square to Venus, which rules my 2nd house. Like I said, all of this cost a lot more than I thought and coming right after Christmas, I am financially squeezed. But Venus changes signs to 0°00 of Sagittarius when the Moon is at 29° 50’ of Aquarius, so these two don’t actually reach perfection. How am I to interpret that? The two reach a square only after both have changed signs, but they are within orb right now at a distance of about 7°.

All very interesting. I'll keep an eye out for any more trouble in picking the car up in New Jersey.
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Tom
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Joined: 11 Oct 2003
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Posted: Tue Jan 04, 2005 1:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Mark,

I hate charts w with mutable angles because Mercury and Jupiter ruler everything. I also think you’re right, the late degrees show this as a “done deal.” The ASC is 29 Virgo ruled by Mercury in Sagittarius. Also you get the Moon. The 7th represents the seller and with Pisces on the cusp, he’s Jupiter in Libra. The price is represented by the 10th house.

I’d use the 2nd for the vehicle, as it is a movable possession. The third house is the house of short journeys. It is not the house that represents the mode of transportation. If we ask a question about taking a journey on a ship, the ship is the first house, not the 9th. In this case it is an extension of the querent, but the ship is not our possession. If we go horseback riding, the horse is not the 3rd house. It represents the journey itself. So, in your case a weak 3rd may show an unpleasant journey, but that has little if anything to do with the condition of the car.

The second house has Libra on the cusp so the car is Venus. Venus is at 29 Scorpio, detriment, and in the 3rd house, cadent. The car isn’t in the best condition. Venus is about to change signs into Sagittarius. Where she is somewhat better placed. Maybe a repair will be necessary.

Mercury represents the price and in detriment it means the price is low. So at least you didn’t pay much for the car or I should say, you didn’t pay more than it was worth.

The Moon’s next aspect is to Mars ruler of the third, probably showing your trip to New Jersey to pick up the vehicle. The aspect is a square and Mars is in the fall of the Moon, so the trip may not go as well as planed.

To me it looks like you got what you paid for. You didn’t’ make a bad bargain. Good luck with the car.

Tom
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MarkF



Joined: 22 Oct 2003
Posts: 523
Location: Outside Washington, DC

Posted: Tue Jan 04, 2005 1:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks Tom. I am having a tough time getting up to New Jersey to pick the car up. First was all the hassle and expense of paying off my old tickets and getting my license renewed. This took a lot of time and trips to the DMV. Now the guy who sold me the car has left for a week's vacation in Puerto Rico and my friend who was going to give me a ride up there says he can't do it right now.

I still am not so sure about which house represents the car. I looked this up in Deb's book and found,
Quote:
If someone asks about the prospects of selling their car this is a 2nd house matter concerning a personal possession, although cars generally fall under the rulership of the 3rd house of travel. Always be aware of the condition of the 2nd house and its ruler where money is important.


I'll take your advice because of your seniority in this, but the whole thing is a bit confusing. At the time I asked the question, I had won the car on e-Bay but had not paid for it, so is this really my possession? I thought of it as mine, so I guess it is. I had thought that the 2nd house only represented things we could carry around with us. I wonder if there are any old charts that deal with people’s carriages? That would be the same thing.

Does my idea about Mercury (me) being retrograde show how I had to settle a lot of problems in my past (suspended drivers license, old tickets, canceled car insurance)? I thought that made some sense.
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Deb
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Posted: Tue Jan 04, 2005 3:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Mark,

I think you need to look at both houses because they are both relevant. The answer depends on the emphasis you give in the question. From the financial aspect of whether this is a good investment into a new personal possession consider the 2nd house - but if you have a blighted 3rd house this can show difficulties related to matters connected to daily travel. I wouldn't buy a new car if either of these houses indicated problems.

Essentially a car ought to be able to be defined as a 'moveable possesion' - if it can't, well then you are in trouble Laughing

Deb
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MarkF



Joined: 22 Oct 2003
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Posted: Tue Jan 11, 2005 3:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, I picked up the car over the weekend, and its is fantastic. It looks great, runs smoothly, and there isn't a scratch on it. The inside is close to brand new looking.

This brings up some thoughts about the chart. I had read the chart using the 3rd house as the car's significator. This way produced a reading that said that the car would be strong and reliable. However, others more informed than I said that the car was seen by the 2nd house ruler, which produced a reading that said the car was weak (in its detriment) and might be in need of some repair.

My interpretation also was that the process of picking the car up would be difficult, but that I would get there in the end. That came true in spades. I went through all kinds of obstacles up till the last minute. The final roadblock was that at the dealer I accidentally locked the keys in the car while it was running. But the dealer called the fire department and they manged to open the car and retrieve the keys. I won't bore you all with the other details of the hard time getting up there, but the main points were a big fight with a friend, major confusion over bus schedules, the car dealer going on vacation, etc.

The problem is that I still think I got this chart right, but how am I to rationalize this with the advice of others on this forum?
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kurgal



Joined: 04 Jan 2005
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Posted: Tue Jan 11, 2005 3:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think valid arguments can be made for assigning a car to both the 2nd House (because it is an item of personal property) AND to the 3rd (because it is a means of transport).

Perhaps the distinguishing factor is ownership and possession? Perhaps if you were asking a question about someone else's car, or certainly about public transport, then you would look to the 3rd House...whereas if you were asking a question about your OWN car, as an item of personal property, you would examine the 2nd....

But then in your case, it appears that you got a very accurate result by taking the car as a 3rd House matter, whereas on my analysis it would come under the 2nd House. Which gives a less accurate result! So...hmmm! Confused
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windhorse



Joined: 05 Jan 2005
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Posted: Tue Jan 11, 2005 12:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hello together!

My look at significators in that chart would be the following:

Mercury and Moon for Mark, Jupiter and Neptune for the dealer, Venus as ruler of the 2nd for the car as a possession, plus Mars as a natural significator for a car. In this chart the latter two are even conjunct!

I would however not attribute the 3rd as such to the car. In this case Mars at the cusp of the 3rd shows the car (Mars) to be the object of the deal. I do not know about horary specifically, but in astrology in general the 3rd may well be commerce. Mercury/Hermes was considered to be the god of dealers!

In this case Mars square Moon would show in the difficulty of getting together car and owner!
Venus, the other significator of the car, square Uranus tells the same story. Uranus at the cusp of the 6th would in general astrology to me read as strongly afflicted circumstances, conditions.

The 3rd is in this case obviously the “small journey” as well.

Mars in a separating trine from Jupiter and an applying sextile to Mercury tells the car is going from the dealer to the querent! I think this shows clearly, that the car is at least co-signified by Mars, the natural significator of artificial horsepower Smile

The deal is swift. But as any deal under retrograde Mercury it is prone to delays.
Mercury went direct on 21st December, but it left the retrograde loop only on January 7th!! This is a decisive parameter always to be considered.

By the way, the Sun as ruler of 11th in the 3rd, afflicted by Pluto, the ruler of the 3rd and therefore the “small journey”, beautifully signifies the friend who turned out to be an obstacle for the journey.

Moon has an applying square to both, Venus and Mars, showing you get the car, but with difficulty. (The car might play an important role in acting out strong desires and emotions Wink ) And Mercury, your main significator is applying by parallel to Mars, also indicating you get it.

The main question for Mark, the shape the car is in, is not easy to be answered. Venus is in detriment but ruled by a strong Mars that is in my view the co-significator of the car.
The conclusion I would draw is this:
The car’s functions are strong, speedy probably. If there are weaknesses they might concern the material of the car (beware of rust Wink ) If something happens, it would come suddenly and as a surprise. But in overall the strong Mars disposes of weaker Venus.

Both significators of the car, Mars and Venus in my view, are mainly afflicted in their squares to the Moon. The Moon herself is disposed by Saturn in 10th (beware of trespassing laws and conflict with authority!) and Uranus. So your feelings and emotions and desire for fun might pose the greatest threat to the car Wink So, drive when you are centred, if erratic feelings move you, take a break first Cool

Good luck to you, Mark!
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