Example Cagliari 16 by lihin Good evening, Thank you, Ms Margherita. If we take as above Cagliari, Sardinia, Italy, latitude 39n13' as an example, we see declinations of fixed stars as follows: Vertical Seginus 38n15' Vega 38n48' Algol 41n0' Horizontal: 90 ./. 39n13' = 50n47' declination Mirfak 49n54' Eltanin 51n29' Would this be correct? What is the maximum recommended 'orb'? Should Ptolemy's text quoted above in two translations be understood like this or are these additional techniques? What are the names of the books by Cardano and Stade, please, and where are they available in which language(s)? Best regards, lihin Non esse nihil non est. Quote Sun Dec 09, 2012 6:47 pm
17 by Mark I'm glad Margherita has mentioned Jean Stade. Margherita has an excellent piece on her website on his system of linking the declination of fixed stars to cities. Its very interesting. http://heavenastrolabe.net/stade-on-fixed-stars/ For the benefit of members reading this unfamiliar with this approach here is a basic introduction: Stade discusses two kinds of fixed star connections to cities. Vertical and Horizontal stars. Firstly, in what Stade calls vertical stars the celestial declination of the star is the same as the terrestrial latitude of a place. For example, New York in modern times has the same terrestrial latitude as the celestial declination of the fixed star Algol. New York city 40?42 / Algol 40?57 (2000) Equally, Washington DC is close in latitude to the celestial declination of Vega. Washington latitude 38?89 /Vega celestial declination 38?47 (2000) Stade seems to be the first astrologer to link cities not just to vertical stars ie that have the same celestial declination as a city but also horizontal stars. Horizontal stars of a place/city are those which during its daily motion (i.e. with daily rotation of the celestial sphere), touches the horizon, but doesn?t cross it. It can be identified easily having the latitude of the city and the declinations of the fixed stars. The calculation is very easy. First, we have to subtract the geographical latitude of the city (no matter northern or southern, just the absolute value) from 90 degrees. Then we have to find a fixed star having the same declination (again, no matter northern or southern) as the result of the subtraction. For example: The latitude of London is 51n30. 90? ? 51?30? = 38?30? The fixed star Vega (? Lyrae) has declination 38n28, therefore Vega is the horizontal star of London. These connections change over time due to precession. Due to the proliferation of stars I would stick to a 1/2 degree orb for lower magnitude stars and up to 1 degree for brighter important fixed stars. Mark As thou conversest with the heavens, so instruct and inform thy minde according to the image of Divinity William Lilly Quote Sun Dec 09, 2012 6:48 pm
Reference to Tetrabiblos by Stade? 18 by lihin Good morning, If i have understood correctly, a horizontal star for Cagliari on 20 March 2013 might also be Canopus, Declination 52s45', but since it is nearly two degrees more than 50s47', it is out of orb. Furthermore, since Canopus is further south than 50s47', it never rises. Methinks, therefore, since we here have visual phenomena, fixed stars never rising should be excluded from the horizontals, even if they be 'within orb'. On the other hand, fixed stars within orb that never set remain visible and therefore should not be excluded. Example: Eltanin as listed above. Does this make sense? If we take the data for Cagliari on 22 March 150, we find 'within orb' the vertical star Deneb Adige with Declination 39n45'. As horizonal star visible and within orb we find Agena (Beta Centauri) with Declination 50s32'. The Italian translation linked at Ms Margherita's web site contains three chapters of Mr Jean Stade's book. Did he intend 'vertical' and 'horizontal' stars related to a place to be a direct application of Ptolemy's text quoted above or are these new techniques developed by him and / or others? Best regards, lihin PS If we extend this thread to all astrological writing on fixed stars from Babylonian times until the Renaissance, we might find much of interest but scarcely be able to use the techniques, many if not most of them 'compilations of anecdotes', to productively read mundane charts. Ptolemy had in my humble opinion the considerable and rare merit of attempting to describe a coherent, universal system of mundane astrology based on general 'scientific' principles that was also the foundation of his system of natal astrology. Non esse nihil non est. Quote Mon Dec 10, 2012 6:01 am
Re: Reference to Tetrabiblos by Stade? 19 by margherita lihin wrote: The Italian translation linked at Ms Margherita's web site contains three chapters of Mr Jean Stade's book. Did he intend 'vertical' and 'horizontal' stars related to a place to be a direct application of Ptolemy's text quoted above or are these new techniques developed by him and / or others? Vertical stars have been used at least by Cardano (in Libellus de Supplemento Almanach), about horizontal stars I don't know any other mention. Are they directly linked with Ptolemy? You know how these authors worked, each of them had his own reading of Tetrabiblos, so it could be. Before you ask me, in Cieloeterra they don't work with stars longitude, they prefer their mundane position, margherita Traditional astrology at http://heavenastrolabe.wordpress.com Quote Mon Dec 10, 2012 7:55 am
20 by Mark Margherita wrote: Before you ask me, in Cieloeterra they don't work with stars longitude, they prefer their mundane position, As noted we have absolutely nothing to go on in the Tetrabiblos regarding what astrological technique Ptolemy used with fixed stars. I can only assume Bezza is in part influenced by Ptolemy's Phases of The Fixed stars? This is a work of astrological weather prediction utilising the fixed stars. The tables in the book provide information on rising and setting of stars in different climata. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Climata This fits into the ancient Greek tradition of parapagmeta which provided calendars and weather prediction based on the fixed stars. Daryn Rosario Lehoux has written a comprehensive book on this subject entitled: Astronomy, Weather, and Calendars in the Ancient World: Parapegmata and Related Texts in Classical and Near Eastern Societies. Cambridge/New York: Cambridge University Press, 2007. http://bmcr.brynmawr.edu/2008/2008-12-28.html Fortunately Lehoux's Doctoral thesis, on which the book is based, is available free to download online. It was entitled: Parapegmata, Astrology, Weather, and Calendars in the Ancient World http://www.collectionscanada.gc.ca/obj/ ... Q53766.pdf Its a mine of relevant information relating to ancient understanding of fixed stars. Sad though that the author felt the need to drop the word astology and replace it with astronomy to gain academic recognition. We also know from the Handy Tables and Almagest that Ptolemy was one of the very few astrologers that could provide the rising and setting times of stars in all the climata. One can imagine Ptolemy preferring the far greater astronomical precision involved in mundane positions of the stars. Simply, projecting stars position on to the ecliptic (regardless of declination) seems a rather crude method for an astromomer of Ptolemy's sophistication. With this method a star is projected on to the same zodiacal degree all across the earth until the star slowly moves away through precession. Moreover, how would Ptolemy have linked stars to specific locations? The only way this could have worked in mundane terms would be if he had exact degrees for the ASC, Moon or Sun in the foundation of a city. This is actually quite possible as Ptolemy does mention this approach in Tetrabiblos. However, Ptolemy would been more aware than any of his contemporaries that in terms of diurnal motion stars rise, culminate and set at different zodiacal degrees depending on one's location on earth. Stade's system has the same generalised approach to stars using declination rather than projection on to the ecliptic. However, since it links locations across earth in the same climata ie latitude to certain fixed stars I can see it more readily fitting the Ptolemaic view based on climatology. However, that is only conjecture on my part. Mark As thou conversest with the heavens, so instruct and inform thy minde according to the image of Divinity William Lilly Quote Mon Dec 10, 2012 10:28 am