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solar returns
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Martin Gansten
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Joined: 05 Jul 2008
Posts: 1303
Location: Malmö, Sweden

Posted: Mon Dec 10, 2012 8:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

james_m wrote:
i don't doubt very few folks are doing primary directions by hand as well.. we have moved into a movement of doing astrology by computer..

When I said 'in the traditional way(s), I didn't mean 'by hand' (nor did I mean using a goose quill). You can do traditional primary directions using computer software, but you need to know what you are doing with it. (And it is a good idea to be able to verify a result if in doubt.)

Quote:
i read your book, enjoyed it and felt i learned from it. it didn't help me to make a firm decision on which were the best options to choose when setting the options on the morinus program though..

No, that wasn't the purpose of the book. I wanted to introduce directions as they were used by the 'Old Masters' of astrology, but (as I am sure you gleaned from the book) they differed on a number of points. If you want to do directions like Ptolemy, you need one set of options; if you want to emulate Lilly or Morin, you need others.

Certainly, if anyone wants to emulate Gansten, I'll be happy to tell what settings I myself use. I am not quite vain enough to think that a matter of great public interest, though.

Quote:
it would be very beneficial to see someone who has worked with them more fully, to witness their logic and application in use, not just with a few examples in a book.

I'm not at all sure what it is you want that you can't find in a book. (Unless it's personal tutoring, which, as I said, I am already offering.)

Quote:
perhaps it doesn't serve your interests to share examples on an ongoing basis, but from my point of view it would encourage a greater interest in your primary direction course! perhaps you don't have many examples.. that would be less attractive!! perhaps the complexity of having to integrate primary direction data with other techniques is just too much to want to share publicly.

No, it's none of your three options, or not exactly. I have plenty of examples, but as I work with real clients, I can't always share them even if I had the time and inclination. I'm always glad to help anyone who is making a serious study of the subject and gets stuck, even if they are not on my course. And it's not really the complexity of combining techniques that is a problem (it's not that complex), but rather lack of grounding. To communicate, people need to speak the same language; and I can't start all over with the basics every time I give an example (what does significator mean, what does promissor mean, what is direct or converse motion, etc). That's why I set up a course.

Quote:
i am going to start doing it on this forum as i see it as necessary.. i am hoping to get concrete feedback when i start to do it too from people like yourself. i am contemplating just where to start with public figures.. if you want to get the ball rolling - great! if not, i will eventually..

Personally, I don't much like using the charts of public figures. The more public they are, the more often the birth time will be in dispute, and the more divergent the accounts of their personal lives will be. But I'll look into Astro-Databank and see what I can find to give at least one useful example based on traditional methods.
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james_m



Joined: 05 Dec 2011
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Location: vancouver island

Posted: Mon Dec 10, 2012 6:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

thanks martin,

it is all good.. i am too stubborn and poor to ask about tutoring, but if i was a different person in a different financial position, i would. the other part is i like to figure out things for myself for the most part.. this is probably the biggest part of this.. books are good, and if i had a friend more knowledgeable who i could talk on the phone, i would do that too. i will continue to stumble along and resonate with what appears to work.

i am curious what any of your personal preferences are though... in mundo, or zodiac positions or both? any other personal choices that you would care to share, i am interested in knowing.. thanks again martin!
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Martin Gansten
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Posted: Mon Dec 10, 2012 6:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

james_m wrote:
i am curious what any of your personal preferences are though... in mundo, or zodiac positions or both? any other personal choices that you would care to share, i am interested in knowing..

I direct by the semi-arc method and use only zodiacal directions, generally without latitude, though I do include conjunctions and oppositions with latitude based on experience. (A zodiacal conjunction/opposition with latitude will be identical to a mundane conjunction/opposition.)
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lihin



Joined: 14 Dec 2009
Posts: 470
Location: Mount Kailash

Posted: Mon Dec 10, 2012 7:22 pm    Post subject: Booklets on Primary Directions Reply with quote

Good evening,

The well known Bulgarian astrologer and author Dr Rumen Kolev published three illustrated booklets on primary directions, available from his web site, that together with Professor Gansten's book have much helped me learn about primary directions.

One can observe that some authors, advocates of primary directions, chose to include many or nearly all points, types and methods in their lists that, during the life of a native, can lead to hundreds of primary directions to pick and choose from. The 'astute astrologer' can then 'prove' astrology by finding matching primary directions for nearly everything at all times within a few days. Of course such an approach is obviously arbitrary, leading at best to tired smiles of sceptics.

But PDs would best be a topic for a separate thread, that, it appears, Professor Gansten has begun. My question for him would be to ask his considered opinion about the work of the early 19th century English astrologer Mr John Worsdale who published two astrological books with many examples and used primary directions extensively.

Best regards,

lihin
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Martin Gansten
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Posted: Mon Dec 10, 2012 8:50 pm    Post subject: Re: Booklets on Primary Directions Reply with quote

lihin wrote:
But PDs would best be a topic for a separate thread, that, it appears, Professor Gansten has begun. My question for him would be to ask his considered opinion about the work of the early 19th century English astrologer Mr John Worsdale who published two astrological books with many examples and used primary directions extensively.

If you've read my Primary Directions, you'll know some of my views on Worsdale already. There is a little more in this paper. Basically, I think Worsdale is good entertainment value, if you like that kind of unintentional humour. It is possible to learn a bit of astrology from his books, if you are patient, but it is not quite my style of astrology. He is very Placidean and uses mundane aspects, minor aspects, etc, and he consistently miscalculates his converse directions. His views and style changed quite a bit between his two books, the first of which was published when he was just in his early twenties.
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Tom
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Location: New Jersey, USA

Posted: Tue Dec 11, 2012 12:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Martin has unintentionally but happily given me a lead-in to a topic I've been thinking of introducing, but strictly speaking does not belong in a thread on solar returns or primary directions for that matter:

Martin wrote:


Quote:
Basically, I think Worsdale is good entertainment value, if you like that kind of unintentional humour. It is possible to learn a bit of astrology from his books, if you are patient, but it is not quite my style of astrology. He is very Placidean and uses mundane aspects, minor aspects, etc, and he consistently miscalculates his converse directions.


John Worsdale (1766 - c. 1826) uses a technique I've not seen elsewhere, yet at some level I think has real value. As Martin noted he uses everything, primaries, transits, converse directions etc, lists them chronologically according to the age at which the "hits" occur and then makes his predictions based on the time periods where the hits are all bunched up and pretty much saying the same thing. In other words he is using a piling up of testimonies of various techniques. Of course it is important that the hits be calculated accurately for this to work effectively, but we have the advantage over Mr. Worsdale with our computers, and more accurate tables. Still his is a time consuming method.

The question is, as always, does this method work? Well it's going to work in his book, we can be sure of that , but does it work anywhere else? I don't know. But if anyone is interested in pursuing this sort of thing, i.e. discussing a chart or two using something like Worsdale's methods, I'd be happy to start a thread dedicated to that.

CAVEAT: I do not want such a thread to be a place where we can throw mud on Mr. Worsdale or his techniques or go into excruciating detail on fine theoretical points. There is a place for that sort of thing, but the thread as I envision it, is not that place. It would simply be, "Can we find examples of his ideas working?"

I have Kolev's Placidus program and the Morinus program as well as other astrology programs, and can supply any data that might otherwise be difficult to obtain. Let me know here or in a private message, and I'll set something up, if there is sufficient interest. It would not be necessary to have a copy of Worsdale's text. I have one for reference should we need it. I even have an original (First Edition c 1828). This exercise would be more geared towards inquiry and fun rather than an attempt to verify something to a scientific certainty.
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