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When temperament doesnt fit chart
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damon



Joined: 23 Sep 2012
Posts: 419

Posted: Sat Jan 26, 2013 2:13 pm    Post subject: When temperament doesnt fit chart Reply with quote

Hi

At heavenastrolabe Marguerita explains the chart of the Captain of Costa Conconcordia Francesco Schettino. According to the chart he should be strongly melancholic,yet his looks suggests a phlegmatic. I wonder if we should look at the body rather than chart to find temperament,as it doesnt always seems to fit, or maybe the rules should be changed

http://heavenastrolabe.net/costa-concordia-captain-schettino-birth-chart/
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margherita



Joined: 10 Mar 2008
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Location: Rome, Italy

Posted: Sat Jan 26, 2013 2:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

my idea is that astrology should fit to life, not vice versa. Schettino obviously is not a melancholic, so I could not write such a thing...

I believe it's the same when we cast charts for people we don't know and insist X is like this and Y like that, and when X and Y protest, we say they don't know themselves Smile I don't believe astrology works like that.

Moreover I believe that temperament assessment in medicine is something precedent to astrological investigation, so I'm happier if chart and body agree but if this does not happen I can cope with this.

margherita
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lihin



Joined: 14 Dec 2009
Posts: 470
Location: Mount Kailash

Posted: Sat Jan 26, 2013 5:16 pm    Post subject: Many opinions on temperaments Reply with quote

Good evening,

Neither physicians nor astrologers since antiquity have expressed uniform opinions on temperaments, ex. gr. how many there are, what they mean, how they may or may not be derived from an astrological geniture or other sources, etc. Physicians, even if they were convinced they knew the temperament of patients, were also in disagreement with each other on treatments.

When Don Quixote de la Mancha decides to attack astrological windmills, he does well by being aware that there are several, if not many, of them.

Best regards,

lihin
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james_m



Joined: 05 Dec 2011
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Posted: Sat Jan 26, 2013 6:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

hi margherita,

thanks for doing the article and sharing your work. i appreciate having the birth data for captian schettino. i really like your article!

as for the relocated solar return verses the natal return - in this case their is very little difference (about 2 degrees on the angles) so both charts have mars close to the ascendant here.

concerning the primary direction of mars in mundo, i am unable to get this data off morinus software and wonder if their is something you are doing differently to get this data? here is a chart representing the data i am getting. the data is generated for one week earlier - nov 14 2011.


image upload
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margherita



Joined: 10 Mar 2008
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Location: Rome, Italy

Posted: Sat Jan 26, 2013 8:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

james_m wrote:


concerning the primary direction of mars in mundo, i am unable to get this data off morinus software and wonder if their is something you are doing differently to get this data? here is a chart representing the data i am getting. the data is generated for one week earlier - nov 14 2011.


voila, mundo direction placidian key
margherita

[img][/img]
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james_m



Joined: 05 Dec 2011
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Posted: Sat Jan 26, 2013 9:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote


image

thanks margherita,

would you mind telling me what the arc 55.421 is supposed to represent? i always thought it was the age of the person for the direction and in this case - 55.421 years of age would be 2016.04.06

well that is what my screen is telling me. unfortunately i still haven't mastered photoshop, but the data is here for you to see, almost all the same as yours except for the date.. morinus is generating this.
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margherita



Joined: 10 Mar 2008
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Posted: Sun Jan 27, 2013 8:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

james_m wrote:


would you mind telling me what the arc 55.421 is supposed to represent? i always thought it was the age of the person for the direction and in this case - 55.421 years of age would be 2016.04.06



No, the arc is not exactly the age, it depends on the key you use. In your case they agree because with Ptolemy key 1 year= 1 degree.


Using Placidus method I used Placidus key.

margherita
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james_m



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Posted: Sun Jan 27, 2013 4:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

thanks margherita,

what is the placidus key? it doesn't appear to be an option in morinus software, but perhaps it is a ratio that you have entered in the 'user' rate which is an option. here i thought placidus wanted to follow ptolemy.

primary directions are rather challenging with this many options and an acknowledgement that the primary key can alter the data by 4 years over a 55 year span of life. what do you think? the potential to make a prediction when the variables can make this big a difference seem to be ruled out! it would be great to figure out what works thru back testing, but i don't see a lot of potential to make predictions with these wide differences in time.

on a related note - the pd of saturn to sun and pd jupiter to descendant coincides with this event of the ship as well. i assume ptolemy would have used these.. they are planets in sect however. see the chart i shared above..

quote from martin on another thread "The 'True Solar Equatorial Arc' is the Placidean key." thanks martin, and to margherita for the conversation.

james


Last edited by james_m on Sun Jan 27, 2013 5:02 pm; edited 1 time in total
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margherita



Joined: 10 Mar 2008
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Posted: Sun Jan 27, 2013 5:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

james_m wrote:
thanks margherita,

what is the placidus key? it doesn't appear to be an option in morinus software, but perhaps it is a ratio that you have entered in the 'user' rate which is an option. here i thought placidus wanted to follow ptolemy.

primary directions are rather challenging with this many options and an acknowledgement that the primary key can alter the data by 4 years over a 55 year span of life. what do you think? the potential to make a prediction when the variables can make this big a difference seem to be ruled out! it would be great to figure out what works thru back testing, but i don't see a lot of potential to make predictions with these wide differences in time.

james


I try to reconstruct original method, so the Placidian method should go with the Placidian key.

In Morinus you can find under Keys/dynamic/true solar equatorial arc.

In practice it is based on the right ascension on the sun at the moment of birth, adding the arc of direction, and converting in time

margherita
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james_m



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Posted: Sun Jan 27, 2013 5:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

thanks margherita,

i happened to find a quote from martin g that led me to my own answer, but i see you posted at the same time. thank you for this conversation. something else for me to look into regarding primary directions, but i really appreciate your sharing all this with me here.
james
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james_m



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Posted: Mon Jan 28, 2013 4:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

hi margherita,

i'd like to continue to understand primary directions better.. after you made these comments i was curious to see what martin gansten had to say in his book on primary directions on the 'placidus key' - true solar equatorial arc.. unfortunately it is not discussed directly anywhere i could find including in the index of the book.. perhaps it is termed differently in his book but i was unable to find anything directly on this.

i did happen to note on page 102 in the summary for chapter 8 'modern innovations' - "Placidus further invented a directional method based on planetary poles and circles of position, meant to approximate the Ptolemaic method. Many later authors mistakenly accepted this approximation as the preferred method of Placidus." would this include this placidus key 'true solar equatorial arc' that you are referring to here? it would seem chapter 8 of ganstens book covers placidus approach in many respects.

james
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margherita



Joined: 10 Mar 2008
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Posted: Mon Jan 28, 2013 7:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

james_m wrote:
hi margherita,


i did happen to note on page 102 in the summary for chapter 8 'modern innovations' - "Placidus further invented a directional method based on planetary poles and circles of position, meant to approximate the Ptolemaic method. Many later authors mistakenly accepted this approximation as the preferred method of Placidus." would this include this placidus key 'true solar equatorial arc' that you are referring to here? it would seem chapter 8 of ganstens book covers placidus approach in many respects.

james


If you ask about Martin Gansten's book you should ask to him. I learned primary directions from Cieloeterra group, so I can talk for me.

For me the Placidian key (which Placido used with his directions) can be calculated adding to the right ascension of the sun at the moment of birth the arc of direction, and then reconverting the distance between these two days in years, months, days.

It should be page 75 of Martin's book.

margherita
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Martin Gansten
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Joined: 05 Jul 2008
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Posted: Mon Jan 28, 2013 9:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

James: it's on p. 75. You could have found it under 'keys' in the index. Or by just reading the book. Wink
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james_m



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Posted: Mon Jan 28, 2013 4:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

thanks margherita and martin,

well it definitely wasn't under placidian keys, and the index includes a lot of reference to placidius and i didn't look at them all! i did read the book about 6-8 months ago, but unfortunately i didn't ''remember'' everything in the book.. there is a difference between reading a book and remembering the book.

martin, does your conclusion on page 102 regarding placidus methods also include his use of this key? you mention on page 79 the key of placidus will be less predictable..

with so many keys to choose from, one is bound to find a 'key' to open the door of prediction, in hindsight at least..

thanks james
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margherita



Joined: 10 Mar 2008
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Posted: Mon Jan 28, 2013 5:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

james_m wrote:


martin, does your conclusion on page 102 regarding placidus methods also include his use of this key? you mention on page 79 the key of placidus will be less predictable..

with so many keys to choose from, one is bound to find a 'key' to open the door of prediction, in hindsight at least..

thanks james


I believe the use of the key and of the method is very personal. In Cieloeterra for example they use only Placidian directions and key since many years. Others would say differently.

Maybe you should find your way,

margherita
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