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profections
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lihin



Joined: 14 Dec 2009
Posts: 470
Location: Mount Kailash

Posted: Tue Dec 04, 2012 8:58 pm    Post subject: Perfected chart method of Dr Bezza, Sig. Fumagalli & Mme Reply with quote

Good evening,

Here is what the perfected chart looks like in Astro PC (colours are selectable but this evening am too tired to seek a better presentation). Perhaps Ms Margherita can compare it with Phasis and post the corresponding chart. As far as i can see, Astro PC only accepts full hours for the perfections. One sees the quickly and slowly rising signs. Fields are according to Placido di Titi.



Best regards,

lihin
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james_m



Joined: 05 Dec 2011
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Posted: Tue Dec 04, 2012 11:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

thank you margherita martin and lihin,

perhaps one of you can tell me if i have got this correct then?

essentially there are 4 choices for an astrologer who wants to work with profections.. some astro programs may offer all these choices, but it appears not, as the data i get is different then what both margherita and lihin share and i seem to have a built in preference in solar fire..

here are the 4 options as i understand them.

option 1 - moving the data forward based on diurnal motion or semi arc based on time it takes for the ascendant to reach a point 2 hours later - what would be the 12th house for the ascendant - and doing something similar for the positions of the planets, a system that ibn ezra and bezza much later favour, all based off what has become better known as placidus's house system.. meanwhile placidus himself swore off the use of profections for other techniques he considered better - primary directions, and secondary progressions/directions..this is what phasis software and astro pc offer based on margheritas and lihins data.

option 2 is moving the planets and houses forward 30 degrees per year, which is what my solar fire offers..

option 3 is using the ascendant ruler for the full year - as exampled by konrads conclusion on the chart of hemingway for the shrapnel injury.

option 4 is changing the ascendant ruler midstream, depending on when the sign changes over the course of a year in any particular persons chart - what my initial chart on this thread is showing for hemingway's shrapnel injury.

if one has objections to any particular option, they might not agree fully with the conclusions reached using one of these particular options..

my desire in asking to see a chart using option 1 is so i can actually compare the results in the example bezza offers on the girl being sexually assaulted.. unfortunately i can't see the data in lihin's post clear enough to be able to do this and in margheritas example, she has offered the positions for the beginning of the solar year - nov 21 1975, but not for aug 30/1976 the date of the actual event in the girls life..

using examples is helpful. if someone can draw some particular conclusion using these alternative options, i would appreciate hearing from them. martin has chimed in to state that the data i am getting he finds useful. i would agree given the planetary positions for the date of aug 30 1976 in this girls chart next to the profection data using option 2 and 4..
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Martin Gansten
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Posted: Wed Dec 05, 2012 7:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

James: I think there are really two main options here, 1 and 2, with 3 and 4 being subtypes of no. 2 and not necessarily mutually exclusive. The way profections seem mainly to have been used at least since the 8th century is to move the ascendant (and any other relevant significator) forward in the zodiac by 30° per year. The profected ruler of the ascendant on the birthday is considered important for the entire year, even though the ascendant may (and typically will) change signs midstream, as you put it.

As for option 1, perhaps the problem here is the definition of 'hour'? If you are using clock hours, equal 1/24 divisions of a day and night, your results won't match ibn Ezra's method. That method is based on dividing the time that any point spends above the horizon into 12 equal parts (day hours), and similarly the time spent below the horizon (night hours). Two such hours make a house.
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lihin



Joined: 14 Dec 2009
Posts: 470
Location: Mount Kailash

Posted: Wed Dec 05, 2012 8:45 am    Post subject: Proliferation of techniques Reply with quote

Good morning,

In spite of some mitigation by computers, the astrologer ultimately has to delineate the chart(s), unless he reduces his role to that of a computer operator setting parameters for automated report generators. Although not useless, such generators are in my humble experience marginally satisfactory and essential impaired by their general use of 20th century astrology, based on an obsolete 10-planet model and often restricted to human psychology of the Jungian school and, even within this framework, to 'pastel coloured' delineations.

Quite willing to concede that my limited mental resources are not able to cope with even a relatively small fraction of modern Western astrological objects, symbol sets and techniques that have proliferated since the Renaissance parallel to the exploding population of the worldwide human pandemic, i therefore purposely restrict them to minima and select the simplest possible techniques wherever possible, ex. gr. whole sign topical places.

As those authors explaining astrological techniques usually restrict their examples, if any, to a relative small, positively skewed and deliberately selected sample set, one can feel comfortable with the described approach until rigorous comparisons of techniques using adequately large randomly chosen samples based on verified event times indicate that

A) one technique yields significantly better results than its competitors (effectiveness),

and

B) the positive increment in accuracy of results is equal to or greater than the additional resources required to use the technique compared to others (efficiency). A) supposes that an astrological method can be effective at all, a supposition still hotly disputed by fundamentalist sceptics.

Thus, the way i have worked until now with yearly perfections is described above as 'Option 3' - using the ascendant ruler for the full year. I plan to continue this way for the time being. The other three methods do not however appear incoherent.

Best regards,

lihin
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james_m



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Posted: Wed Dec 05, 2012 5:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

martin - thanks. i was thinking that too - options 1 and 2 are the real options, with 3 and 4 being a sub option after you have opted for 2.. one can't opt for 3 or 4 only, but have to decide how they want to move the planets forward thru options 1 or 2..

lihin - thanks. you and i like talking philosophy which is how i read your post here.. perhaps you'd like to make the same post in the philosophical section and i can comment. i want to keep the focus on profections here. thanks!
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lihin



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Posted: Wed Dec 05, 2012 6:24 pm    Post subject: Subsets of perfections? Reply with quote

Good evening,

Perhaps i have misunderstood Professor Gansten's last post, but it seems to me that there is a significant qualitative difference between Perfections Option 2 and Option 3 similar to the difference between equal and whole sign topical places that mitigates against considering Option 3 a variant of Option 2.

A sign in whole sign systems, both for perfections and for topical places, is, it seems to me, considered as a distinct quality. One does not pass gradually, continuously from one sign to another but suddenly. The elements of the chart, root or perfected, 'jump' by one full sign.

Best regards,

lihin
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james_m



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Posted: Wed Dec 05, 2012 7:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

talking house systems on the profection thread again.. gotta love you lihin, lol..
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lihin



Joined: 14 Dec 2009
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Location: Mount Kailash

Posted: Thu Dec 06, 2012 12:51 am    Post subject: direct connexions between field systems and profections? Reply with quote

Good morning,

To me it seems, as Ms Margherita has mentioned concerning the Placido-Bezza perfections methods, that there is a direct connexion between perfections and field system selection, that Placido fields are better suited to display the temporal structure of Placido-Bezza perfections than, say, equal places. The chart above shows this, methinks, well. If we were comparing house systems as such for topical purposes, this would be off topic. But we are not.

'Philosophy' means love of Sophia, the Goddess of Wisdom. It is, methinks, much broader in scope and more general than explaining reasons for very practical choices of perfections tools and options. I have yet to encounter or to hear of an astrologer who uses in daily practice or even occasionally all of the objects and techniques she knows about.

Best regards,

lihin
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lihin



Joined: 14 Dec 2009
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Posted: Tue Jan 29, 2013 7:55 am    Post subject: Placido-Bezza perfections in polar regions? Reply with quote

Good morning,

Meanwhile i have encountered a practical difficulty in seeking to apply the various perfections methods discussed in this thread.

How does one apply the Placido-Bezza 'continuous' system of perfections to events located in the polar zones (i. e. north respectively south of 66 2/3 degrees north respectively south latitude)? Here is an example from Auréas which to illustrate the problem. The perfected planets are all at one location shown at the right of the chart:



Similar problems may be encountered with other uses of Placido's field system in polar zones.

Best regards,

lihin
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lihin



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Posted: Sun Feb 03, 2013 12:35 pm    Post subject: Perfections as mean fractals? Reply with quote

Good afternoon,

Upon reviewing this thread, it seems to me that the possibilities of calculations of perfections may be even broader and more complex than envisaged hitherto.

As the Cielo e Terra school have done using the semi-arc system not invented but considerably developed by the Renaissance astrologer Signor Placido di Titi, one can use primary motion measured in right ascension to calculate perfections.

Dr Rumen Kolev and perhaps others have observed that the series solar revolution, perfections and primary directions may be considered as fractals of the same overall time system.

Using the tropical mean solar day as an underlying unit of measure, one can, in applying mean values to other members of the fractal set, arrive for example at the 'Naibod' key for primary directions, 59' 8.33" of arc in right ascension = one year of life.

If one wishes to analogically apply this method to perfections, what would speak against a key of one perfected year = 29.56944 (29° 34' 10") degrees of right ascension? Perhaps this is a recalculation of an old 'wheel'. Where is it found in prior astrological literature?

Best regards,

lihin
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