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profections
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james_m



Joined: 05 Dec 2011
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Posted: Sat Dec 01, 2012 6:00 am    Post subject: profections Reply with quote

i have a vague idea on how this older technique works, but i am looking for more info on the specifics.

the idea seems to be that a sign is good for a year. if you are born with aries rising, then in the 2nd year it will be taurus and etc etc until you come back to the 13th, or 25th when you get back to aries again. is that the general idea?

the reason i ask is i note that depending on the degree of the ascendant, one will notice that the ascendant will possibly change before the year is out, based off one's birth date.

i am going to use an example that is being used on another thread, as i have to see and understand this stuff for myself, but am not opposed to letting myself ask others for their views on this..

here is a chart using lahiri ayanamsa for ernest hemingway - on the inner wheel, with the profections for the date july 8 1918 also given in the same format on the outer wheel.



as one can see the ascendant is in pisces, not aquarius. is the way most folks use these predictive tools in a manner where the ascendant holds from yearly birth date to the next birth date- in hemingways case july 21st to july 21st, or does it change as i have it here via my solar fire astro prog?

thanks!
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Martin Gansten
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Posted: Sat Dec 01, 2012 6:58 am    Post subject: Re: profections Reply with quote

In the early Arabic authors (who presumably got their method from the Persians), you find both approaches. The sign on the profected ascendant on the birthday determines the ruler of the year, which is considered valid for that entire year of life; but the ascendant is also profected continuously (as are other points) at a rate of 30 degrees/year, and the times when it encounters the benefics/malefics and their aspects are noted.
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Mark
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Posted: Sat Dec 01, 2012 7:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

There seems to have been three basic phases in the use of profections. Firstly, the original hellenistic approach where a whole sign=a profectional year. Within that system there were also sub-periods with a month having a profectional ruler too. Apart from this quite simple approach Valens also adopts a more complicated approach where the planets present in a particular WSH in a profectional year can take on a determining role.

Secondly, some Persian astrologers adopted a method projecting a profectional year 30 degrees from the previous year. This could be compared to an equal house=a profectional year.

Thirdly, the later Arabic and Latin medieval and renaissance approach where the the chart is progressively moved throughout a year. In this period the astrologers had adopted quadrant house systems such as Alcabitius, Regiomontanus etc. Here the entire chart is moving forward throughout the year at the rate of 30 degrees spread over the entire year. This applies to planets and angles. In particular they profected aphetic points such as ASC, MC, Sun, Moon and Part of Fortune.

In the medieval period they tied profections into solar returns. In particular the sign ruling the profectional year on their birthday became the 'Lord of the Year' and was seen to have particular significance in terms delineating the solar return chart.

Robert Zoller taught his students the standard medieval/renaissance approach to profections. However, Benjamin Dykes seems to prefer the original hellenistic approach based on whole sign houses. He doesn't seem to be using the more complicated variation taught by Valens. However, Chris Brennan does teach this method too.

Mark
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Konrad



Joined: 01 Nov 2009
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Posted: Sat Dec 01, 2012 9:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mark, 1918 was Hemingway's 19th year, so profection moves from Leo -> Pisces.

And James, I think I use profections rather loosely, so perhaps mine is not the best example to use. I profect a sign a year to find the lord of the year and any activated planets/figures contained in the sign or in its stakes. I then move the profection 30 degrees a year to time the events promised by the nativity and the revolution. If the profection changes sign, I will keep in mind the lord of the new sign in regards to timing but not for events for that year. I also will not make a final jugement on profections until I see the revolution for that year too as transiting planets in the profected sign or its stakes can influence the results while benefics/malefics can effect the promises of the nativity according to their nature.
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Konrad



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Posted: Sat Dec 01, 2012 10:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hemingway was born in 1899, Mark, but yes, it is still the previous year which is why, in my example, I said Saturn is the lord of the year and the opposition of transiting Mars to the profected ASC triggered the event (Mars at 14 Vir -> profected ASC 14 Pis).
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Mark
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Posted: Sat Dec 01, 2012 10:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Oh dear that would explain it then. I thought it was 1889. Maybe I do need those glasses. How embarrassing. Embarassed I shall delete all my analysis above to avoid further confusion.

Mark
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Mark
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Posted: Sat Dec 01, 2012 11:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Your method sounds complex but very interesting Konrad. I have a few questions for you on that. However, for now I thought I might offer James_M a more basic explanation of profections using the hellenistic approach. This is how Benjamin Dykes teaches profections at present.

In the original approach to profections the profectional sign only changes annually. The idea of it changing during the year was an innovation introduced by Perso-Arabic era astrology. So utilising a hellenistic outlook at the time he was injured Hemingway was still going through a 7th house profectional year ruled by Aquarius. In hellenistic astrology the 7th house can be a weakening place for the native. On his birthday when Hemingway was convalescing in hospital he entered an 8th house/Pisces profectional year. Hemingway spent 6 months in hospital after he was injured by shrapnel wounds to both legs.

However, hellenistic astrology also looked at monthly profections. We count these from the annual profectional sign which is here Aquarius during 1917-1918. At the time he was injured during WWI Hemingway was in the last month before his birthday placing him in a Capricorn 12th house sub period. In the natal chart Capricorn rules Hemingway's 6th house. There are no planets in Hemingway's 7th house. However, Saturn Rx is natally configured in square to Mars in his ASC.

A few basic pointers.

-The profectional year returns to the ASC natal sign every 12 years. So at the ages of 12, 24, 36, 48, 60 we have a 1st house profectional year.

-We have a 7th house profectional year at the ages of of 18, 30, 42, 54, 66

-We have a 10th house profectional year at the ages of 21, 33, 45, 57, 69.

-We have a 4th house profectional year at the age 15, 27, 39, 51, 63.

So even by just knowing someones age you can assess which profectional year they are in.

Hellenistic astrologers would assess how strong those years were by assessing radix factors like planets in those houses and rulers. However, different profections would obviously vary in effect depending on other sub-periods. Similarly, we can look an the annual revolution and transits.

Mark
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Last edited by Mark on Sat Dec 01, 2012 11:55 am; edited 5 times in total
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Konrad



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Posted: Sat Dec 01, 2012 11:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sure Mark, just PM me if you want.
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Mark
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Posted: Sat Dec 01, 2012 12:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hello Konrad,

James omitted to give the link to your delineation of Hemingway's chart which is very interesting indeed. I only just read it myself. I assume that is what motivated his question here:

http://skyscript.co.uk/forums/viewtopic.php?t=7090&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=30

Mark
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lihin



Joined: 14 Dec 2009
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Posted: Sat Dec 01, 2012 12:09 pm    Post subject: Underlying issues? Reply with quote

Good afternoon,

Obviously, the sign of the yearly perfection will more likely than not be different in a 'sidereal' equal-sign zodiac from a northern hemisphere tropical one.

'Profection' is a corruption of 'perfection', a word also used astrologically in the realisations of aspects. Here in an excellent paper on perfections:

Dr Giuseppe Bezza. The "profection". How it should be calculated, how it should be interpreted. English translation by Margherita Fiorello

Here is an English translation of another valuable text illustrating an advanced Renaissance technique of perfections:

Marco Fumagalli, The profection encounters, English translation by Margherita Fiorello

In this translation one finds ex. gr. the following text:

Quote:
"... the horoscope degree does not move along the ecliptic at the rate of one sign per year, but along the circle of the hours, clockwise, one house per year."


One can observe that, especially since the beginning of the Renaissance (about 1307 CE), mathematical complexities, degrees of difficulty and variations in calculations of perfections have increased compared to say Hellenistic antiquity. Have the resulting improvements, if any, in astrological delineations demonstrably been proportional to the increased mental efforts required?

Assuming some basic validity of some kind of astrology, an assumption still hotly contested by dogmatic sceptics, the astrologer is, like other professionals, faced with optimisation problems like:

1. Is a particular astrological tool effective, id est does it work at all?

2. How effective is it compared to other tools designed for similar purposes, ex. gr. Perfections to Firdaria?

3. How does a tool match the mental and time constraints of the astrologer, for example does he really understand how it is intended to work?

4. Efficiency = Input / Output, if > 1, one has inefficiency. How efficient is the tool compared to A) nil output or B) outputs of comparable tools in relation to A') the sum of the inputs or B') the difference between its inputs and those of comparable tools to obtain the same output.

(One might recall that if output is nil, effectiveness is nil. If effectiveness is nil, efficiency is also nil.)

The resulting tool set will vary from one astrologer to another.

Related to the required inputs is the availability of astrology software for calculations of certain techniques. To my knowledge, only the astrology programmes Astro PC (Auréas, Paris) and Phasis (Astrophasis, Milan), both available in English, currently include the Renaissance perfection calculations according to the methods explained by Dr Giuseppe Bezza and Marco Fumagalli in the papers mentioned above.

Not yet having seen, but open to, any convincing evidence of better astrological effectiveness (efficiency aside) obtained by other, more complex methods, i use whole sign Hellenistic Perfections.

Best regards,

lihin
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Mark
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Posted: Sat Dec 01, 2012 12:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lihin wrote:
Quote:
Obviously, the sign of the yearly perfection will more likely than not be different in a 'sidereal' equal-sign zodiac from a northern hemisphere tropical one.


Yes I am not clear myself why James decided to post charts using the Lahiri zodiac. I had formed the view he works exclusively with the tropical zodiac. Confused

I assume he was just impressed by Konrad's delineation of the chart since he does work this way.

I decided to play along in the spirit of James_M's post. I think the basic issue here is the methodology we use to work out profections not our chosen zodiac. It would be interesting to study the chart tropically too. I haven't even done that yet.

Still, I would rather avoid this becoming a tropical vs sidereal issue. I can still see lots of useful ideas in Konrad's post ( link above) irrespective of how you choose to work.


Lihin wrote:
Quote:
Here in an excellent paper on perfections:

Dr Giuseppe Bezza. The "profection". How it should be calculated, how it should be interpreted. English translation by Margherita Fiorello


Thank You. Thumbs up

Mark
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Martin Gansten
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Posted: Sat Dec 01, 2012 2:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mark wrote:
There seems to have been three basic phases in the use of profections. [...]

Secondly, some Persian astrologers adopted a method projecting a profectional year 30 degrees from the previous year. This could be compared to an equal house=a profectional year.

Thirdly, the later Arabic and Latin medieval and renaissance approach where the the chart is progressively moved throughout a year.

Mark, I'd be very interested if you could elaborate on the difference between these two latter phases, as it is not clear to me. To my understanding, the main difference is between profection by discrete increments of one sign (per year/month/two-and-a-fraction days) and by continuous motion at a rate of 30 degrees/year.

Personally, I am not convinced that the continuous model was invented by the Persians; I suspect it may have been present even in the Hellenistic period, although there is currently no textual evidence to prove it. After all, we know the Greeks used both whole-sign houses and houses calculated by degree, both whole-sign aspects and aspects calculated by degree, so it wouldn't come as a shock to find that they used profections both ways as well. But this is just speculation on my part.

Perhaps those who have studied the Greek material in greater depth could tell me what Greek texts are available that demonstrate the use of profections, apart from Valens (and a few lines in the Tetrabiblos)?

PS: As for the Hemingway example, it was in the sidereal zodiac because it was originally posted by Konrad, who does work sidereally.
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margherita



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Posted: Sat Dec 01, 2012 3:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It's interesting to notice that even in later authors like Eleuterio Eleo Zebeleno (XIV) only discrete profections are considered.

That's the last part of a translation by Giuseppe Bezza (in Italian)

http://www.cieloeterra.it/testi.zebeleno/zebeleno.html

I tend to think that whole-sign houses (but mine it's just my hypothesis) don't favor the use of continuous profections, but obviously I don't know.

margherita
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james_m



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Posted: Sun Dec 02, 2012 2:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

thanks everyone for the feedback on this. it is all insightful, informative and educational.

the use of profections, or perfections as lihin points out in his interesting link/s - seems fairly static, much like solar arc directions for example which are criticized for moving everything around in the same aspectual relationship as what is done here with profections.. if something works, go for it. i don't really care what method it is but am most interested in something being of some symbolic relevance.

rumen kolev raised some interesting observations in the revised edition of his "primary directions 1" book in a short update to his book in 2009 that some here might enjoy reading. he wrote the original book in 1997 prior to different texts being made available to alter some of his view perhaps..

here is dr. rumen kolevs comments in a short update from june 2009 :

"in fact, the primary directions are only a part of the revelation of the ancient astro-sophy which was revealed to the prophet En Meduranki in 5500bc and started the golden age itself that derived from 5500bc to around 3500bc.

the primary directions that will be discussed here, are more exactly only a part of the prognostic system of this most ancient astrosophy.
they are one of the smallest ('slowest') levels of the time-fractal of life.
these directions equate 4 minutes to 1 year of life. the higher levels are equating 2 hours to 1 year of life and in the end, 1 day to 1 year of life.

the profections are nothing but degradation of this fractal of 2 hours= 1 year and the same for the progressions.

the difference is that in the Real directions, we turn the whole celestial sphere and watch everything happening there, while we all know how are practiced the profections and the progressions since the greeks.

since the time the tradition went to the greeks, many keys have been lost though the light of the truth still perspires through the pages of the manuscripts written by the hellenistic scholars and philosophers.

the whole teaching of the fractals of time is encoded beautifully in the way the sumerians divide the year and the day ( the 24 hour period).

they are divided the same way! the day is divided in 12 babylonian hours - 6 night and 6 day hours.. each hour is divided in 30 parts. 1 of these is equal to our 4 minutes.. and 1 babylonian hour is equal to 2 modern hours..

the sumerians had unequal system of hour-division. they divided the night in 6 parts and the day too.. so, the length of the day-hour and the night-hour varies with the seasons and the position of the sun..

a roman historian testifies that the babylonians used for prognosis the hours as in the of the equinoctium (that is the same as our modern equal hours).

so now we have two models of the time-fractal to check (with seasonal and with equal, equinoctial hours).

ultimately the historical records point so far back in time as hermes for the source of teaching of primary directions.. Abenragel in the book on Tasyr (translated for the first time in 2009 in spanish) distinguishes between two ways of directing: of hermes(by ascensional times) and of ptolemy (by semi-arcs of horary times)."

it is interesting this idea of 2 hours = 1 year as a symbolic direction.. anyone here work with this and is there a name for it? apparently profections ain't it!!

thanks again for the comments here.
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Martin Gansten
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Posted: Sun Dec 02, 2012 8:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

james_m wrote:
it is interesting this idea of 2 hours = 1 year as a symbolic direction.. anyone here work with this and is there a name for it? apparently profections ain't it!!

It seems very similar to the variant of profections devised by Abraham ibn Ezra and discussed by Giuseppe Bezza (as mentioned in an earlier post).

Historically speaking, however, Kolev's views are rather fanciful.
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