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profections
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lihin



Joined: 14 Dec 2009
Posts: 470
Location: Mount Kailash

Posted: Sun Dec 02, 2012 10:56 am    Post subject: Eleutherius Zebelenus of Elis: a Greek writer Reply with quote

Good morning,

Thank you, Ms Margherita, for the useful link. Eleutherius Zebelenus of Elis was a Greek writer, not a Persian as i had mistakenly thought from the title of the translation by Dottore Giuseppe Bezza. It appears that none of his work has yet been translated into English.

For native English speakers unfamiliar with foreign languages, it is often the case that astrological and other very useful works have not been and perhaps will never be translated into English. One not infrequently observes that authors in one language or another 'reinvent the wheel' due to unawareness of work already accomplished in another language.

Dr Rumen Kolev, a resident of Varna, Bulgaria, is in my humble experience one of the most knowledgeable living experts on primary directions and other matters astrological. The software he developed for primary directions includes functions not yet present to my knowledge in any other programmes. His theory of pre-diluvian astrology that became garbled and / or partially lost does not appear less coherent than many other theories. Similar theories including 'lost words' are a publicly well known subject of Freemasonry. They also fit well with the traditional notions of descending cycles of which we are currently in the lowest, the Iron (or Dark) Age referred to in the Hindu tradition as 'Kali Yuga', the subject of a current parallel thread here.

As Professor Gansten has pointed out, the method of perfections explained by Dottore Giuseppe Bozza and Signor Marco Fumagalli at the links above is indeed a realisation of the two hours = 1 year 'key' in clockwise diurnal motion. Although diurnal primary motion is the astronomical phenomenon best known by nearly everyone (day and night, sunrise and sunset), it is, alas, often ignored in modern astrology.

Best regards,

lihin
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Mark
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Posted: Sun Dec 02, 2012 5:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Martin Gansten wrote:
Quote:
Mark, I'd be very interested if you could elaborate on the difference between these two latter phases, as it is not clear to me. To my understanding, the main difference is between profection by discrete increments of one sign (per year/month/two-and-a-fraction days) and by continuous motion at a rate of 30 degrees/year.


Hello Martin,

I confess I didn't form this view from any personal research of the primary sources. Embarassed So I cant offer you the detailed answer you are seeking. Rather, I formed this view from the way Benjamin Dykes presented the subject of profections in the two workshops I have attended where he discussed profections. I recall a handout from the first workshop that explicitly set out the history of profections in this tripartite manner. However, that was 4-5 years ago. Benjamin Dykes has done a lot of translations since that time so it is possible his view might have shifted.

Reflecting on this I think the implication is that the 30 degree non-sign related approach, originally adopted by the Persians, was fixed and not rolling throughout the year. Although there may well have been sub-divisions for monthly, daily profections as with the hellenistic profections. Otherwise, I would agree with you that this would have been indistinguishable from the standard medieval/renaissance approach.

I suspect the answer to this may rely in a close of study of Benjamin Dykes Persian Nativities trilogy. Its one of my regrets that since purchasing these books that I have had little time to work my way systematically through these important works.

Mark
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james_m



Joined: 05 Dec 2011
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Posted: Sun Dec 02, 2012 6:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Martin Gansten wrote:
james_m wrote:
it is interesting this idea of 2 hours = 1 year as a symbolic direction.. anyone here work with this and is there a name for it? apparently profections ain't it!!

It seems very similar to the variant of profections devised by Abraham ibn Ezra and discussed by Giuseppe Bezza (as mentioned in an earlier post).


thanks martin. i re-read the 2 links and got a bit more from doing that.

here is a footnote to the article that is informative "Ibn Ezra house system was in fact proposed, four centuries later, by Magini and later by Placido, under whose name was eventually known by the English speaking astrologers."


from reading the example given in those links, which i will share again here, my astrosoftware produces different results, that are slightly out of line with the results given in the links..

http://cieloeterra.it/eng/eng.articoli.incontri/incontri.html

http://www.cieloeterra.it/eng/eng.articoli.profezione/profezione.html

here is what i get.


anyone have any thoughts on why this differs from the example data given in the links that lihin initially provided?
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margherita



Joined: 10 Mar 2008
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Posted: Mon Dec 03, 2012 7:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

james_m wrote:



anyone have any thoughts on why this differs from the example data given in the links that lihin initially provided?


I can't understand why all your houses start with 2.24. Bezza's method does not work like that (or maybe I don't understand your picture). As written in the article, the 2 temporal hours of the Ascendant degree should be added to the Ascendant oblique ascension. The Italian programmer who worked on Morinus added to it the option to calculate them.

Or obviously the new Cieloeterra software Phasis does it, even in a wonderful graphical form, see chart of profection http://www.astrophasis.com/index.eng.html

margherita
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Konrad



Joined: 01 Nov 2009
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Posted: Mon Dec 03, 2012 8:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

It is because James has set the house-system to "equal".
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lihin



Joined: 14 Dec 2009
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Location: Mount Kailash

Posted: Mon Dec 03, 2012 9:45 am    Post subject: Fans of Placido? Reply with quote

Good morning,

As one can study, parts of today's Italy were within the 'central zone' defined by Klaudios Ptolomaios in his Tetrabiblos, Book II, for mundane astrological use. Except for a rupture period a few centuries during the 'dark age' following the conquest of Rome by Germanic tribes, when the Hermetic tradition withdrew towards the East, even to northern Persia, Italy has since antiquity continually basked in its light, at times hidden from ecclesiastical authorities, at times sponsored by them. Even today, orthography aside, most if not nearly all Italian verbs are identical to their Latin counterparts.

Thus, it seems logical to me that Italian astrologers feel themselves more in a continual stream of tradition than in distinct periods like 'Hellenistic, Mediaeval, Renaissance'. Rather than an innovator in a new period, Placido of Titi is seen to have been a superb mathematician-astrologer who actualised some techniques that were potentially in Ptolemy's Tetrabiblos. Of course there was and is still much debate on who actualised them better, ex. gr. Placido or Johannes Müller.

Although i personally do not apply it for basic topical delineations, Placido's field system is based on his calculations of mundane diurnal semi-arcs like the equivalent calculations of the perfections. To visualise these, it seems to me that Placido's field system is appropriate.

In my limited knowledge, Phasis software is to date the only programme that allows one to calculate and visualise the root chart and the three mainstay predictive charts of Hellenistic and Mediaeval astrology together, namely:

1. root chart of the event

2. solar revolution

3. perfection

4. primary directions.

One might notice that transits are not amongst the last three. One might also notice that 3 and 4 are based on primary motion in the system applied in Phasis.

Best regards,

lihin
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margherita



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Posted: Mon Dec 03, 2012 2:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Konrad wrote:
It is because James has set the house-system to "equal".


If so there is something wrong. Bezza's method is based on Placidean houses.The Ascendant degree in the first birthday shifts on the 12th house, in the second birthday it shifts on 11th house and so on... but obviously it works only with Placidean houses

margherita
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james_m



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Posted: Mon Dec 03, 2012 5:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

hi margherita,

as konrad mentions, i have used equal house system, which i never thought would become the 'new' focus of this thread when asking my question.. my question is on the "location by degree" of the planets, house systems being an arbitrary choice that astrologers make at their discretion all the time.. back to my question - if someone could tell me why the degree of the planets is different in my chart then what is offered in those links, i would appreciate it.. we can have a conversation on house systems on another thread.. thanks.
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margherita



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Posted: Mon Dec 03, 2012 7:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

james_m wrote:
hi margherita,

house systems being an arbitrary choice that astrologers make at their discretion all the time.. .


If you are talking about Bezza's system, the house system is not alternative. These profections are built on Placidean houses.

About planets it is explained in the article: you should convert the hourly distance of the planet in equatorial degrees, calculate the distance from the Right Ascension of the profected MC and convert this oblique ascension/descension in longitude. Please don't ask me an example with number Smile

margherita
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damon



Joined: 23 Sep 2012
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Posted: Mon Dec 03, 2012 8:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

margherita wrote:
james_m wrote:



anyone have any thoughts on why this differs from the example data given in the links that lihin initially provided?


I can't understand why all your houses start with 2.24. Bezza's method does not work like that (or maybe I don't understand your picture). As written in the article, the 2 temporal hours of the Ascendant degree should be added to the Ascendant oblique ascension. The Italian programmer who worked on Morinus added to it the option to calculate them.

Or obviously the new Cieloeterra software Phasis does it, even in a wonderful graphical form, see chart of profection http://www.astrophasis.com/index.eng.html

margherita

Basis is supposed to be a free download but from what I`ve seen it is not Confused
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james_m



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Posted: Mon Dec 03, 2012 9:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

hi margherita,

thanks. i am not focused on bezza's system, but on the different way in which profections can be done to result in different data.. i would like to see how and in what way bezza's system differs (leaving aside house systems) from what solar fire astro prog is spitting out for me.. maybe some observant folks won't let me get away with this and will drag me back to talking house systems, but it would be nice if they didn't!

back when i started astrology in the 70's i did charts by hand.. it has been a long time since and the astro software has come in very handy.. if someone has a copy of any of these programs that either margherita, or lihin talks about and they know how to put up a chart using the data provided in the bezza link for the girl and 1976, or getting the data off the chart i have provided to compare the differences, i would appreciate it. thanks!
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margherita



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Posted: Tue Dec 04, 2012 7:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

james_m wrote:
hi margherita,
. i would like to see how and in what way bezza's system differs (leaving aside house systems) from what solar fire astro prog is spitting out for me.. maybe some observant folks won't let me get away with this and will drag me back to talking house systems, but it would be nice if they didn't!


Think what you want. I'm just saying that in Bezza's system the choice of houses is not indifferent, but they are calculated in a way that the Ascendant degree 2.24 Taurus shifts backward on the previous cusps, the others are not the radix ones, differently from Hellenistic and Arab profections where the degree on the cusp is kept.

For the planets this is table taken from Phasis - I explained in my previous post how they are calculated (from Bezza's article) - don't ask me to calculate by hand please Smile



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Martin Gansten
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Posted: Tue Dec 04, 2012 8:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

James, what Margherita is trying to explain is that the (mathematically more involved) system of profections advocated by ibn Ezra and revived by Bezza (I'm not aware of it having been used much in the intervening centuries) is based on house division by double horary times, later known as Placidus houses.

In this system, when the degree and minute natally on the ascendant has traversed exactly 1/6 of its path above the horizon, it will be on the 12th house cusp; when it has gone 2/6, it will be on the 11th house cusp; etc. This is the defining characteristic of Placidus houses, and you won't get the same result using any other house system.

What Solar Fire does is the more traditional method of advancing all points by 30° of ecliptical longitude per year. In my personal experience, this is a very useful technique.
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Martin Gansten
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Posted: Tue Dec 04, 2012 9:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Going back a bit,

margherita wrote:
It's interesting to notice that even in later authors like Eleuterio Eleo Zebeleno (XIV) only discrete profections are considered.

I just had a look at this text, and it clearly uses continuous profections in the ecliptic, every degree corresponding to 365/30 = 12 and 1/6 days:

Quote:
Ora, la disposizione del segno del compimento è la seguente: ogni grado ottiene giorni 12 e un sesto di un giorno e vi sono 30 gradi compiuti in un anno completo e nell'anno che segue vi sono altrettanti gradi e minuti.

It does the same thing with monthly directions, equating every day in an approximately 28-day month (to give 13 months in a year, keeping the annual and monthly profections in rhythm) with 30/28 = 1 degree 4 minutes of arc.
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margherita



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Posted: Tue Dec 04, 2012 1:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

[quote="Martin Gansten"]
Quote:
Ora, la disposizione del segno del compimento è la seguente: ogni grado ottiene giorni 12 e un sesto di un giorno e vi sono 30 gradi compiuti in un anno completo e nell'anno che segue vi sono altrettanti gradi e minuti.


Great! I completely missed, thanks for pointing out

margherita
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