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Varuna 2 wrote:

My only purpose in differentiating between astrology and I Ching, was to demonstrate that astrology does ultimately use a natural world basis in a way that is easily understood by contemplating an ephemeris vs. some other form of reading such as the I Ching.

Superficially, astrology may appear more 'real world' but I am not sure such a dichotomy actually reflects the reality of the process involved. After all both systems rely on making a meaningful sense out of symbolic language and applying it to ourselves and friends, family and clients. I dont personally hold to a strict causal view of astrology. I rather like the Platonic notion of 'emanation' which could be applied to any system of divination. From this perspective all such systems are at best only tools i.e. Astrology, I Ching, Tarot, Runes. They represent inferior emanations from an ultimate or higher level of reality or truth. Like St Paul said 'For now we see through a glass, darkly'. Ultimately, I see all such systems as dispensible in preference to genuine spiritual realisation.

Varuna2 wrote:

Was your last sentence/paragraph a subtle jab back at me, just because I am not a skilled astrologer who uses jyotish, and based on a misunderstanding of my own real intentions? I can confidently state that you are being overly sensitive towards me and projecting, because I know myself, that what you stated was not my real intent, therefore it is coming from you. Maybe you were offended by my 'being tough' and aggression in the tropical thread in the jyotish section - which was not intended to offend you or tropicalists.

No Varuna I didn't have you in mind at all. I dont go in for sneaky underhand attacks like that. If I really wanted to criticise you you would know all about it. So I have to state you are being over sensitive here. To criticise someone due to lack of astrological experience or because they followed a different approach (in your case Jyotish) would be contemptible behaviour in my view.

I was actually thinking of the rather uninispiring shallowness of some of the so called 'professionals' out there.

Mark

We in the West tend to think too much in logical fashion,like "if A is right B must be wrong". Too radical.
Hence the penchant to regard on type of astrology as the only true one.
And that`s not how things work in my view. Many westerners are surprised that Japanese follow both Xintoist and Budist practices and philosophy, which in many ways contradict one another.
Not in their minds.

Regards

Damon wrote:

We in the West tend to think too much in logical fashion,like "if A is right B must be wrong". Too radical.

Is this just a product of the west or about logic? Actually I detect an increasing influence of secular relativism in the west. In contrast I see lots of examples of what one might call dualistic thinking in the Islamic world today. Maybe this kind of thinking originates from a monotheistic mindset? In India this kind of dualistic religious thinking has also come more to the fore with the growth of Hindu nationalist groups. Staunch monotheism is usually inimical to pluralism. What is going on in Egypt just now is a good example of what I mean.

East Asia is of course different as monotheism never really took hold there.

Of course there are are other kinds of cultural dualism or exclusivism based on race, language, nationality etc.

Mark

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Good morning,

Those who investigate the subject may discover that at the latest since India's conquest by the armies of Alexander the Great in the 4th century BCE, Aristotelian logic (Aristotle was, we may recall, the tutor of Alexander the Great during the latter's childhood and youth) has been the basic norm in India, although some variants have developed.

One apparently easily forgets that, to apply the rules of logic, a certain given set of statements is taken, not a 'tabula rasa'. One cannot, to use an analogy, operate on the entire body simultaneously, but covers the non-operated parts from view.

Contrary to the opinion of some, methinks the developments of Hellenic philosophy including logic, physic and metaphysic and of Hellenistic astrology are heritages of our culture to be lovingly maintained and cultivated.

Aristotle is often ignored by adherents of various 'new age' ideologies. He is for their taste far too realistic. Platonic and Neo-Platonic philosophies with their more apparent potential delights in what might be called (no derogation at all intended!) 'spiritual orgasms' are usually preferred by 'new-agers' and persons with similar mind-sets.

Best regards,

lihin

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Good morning,

Logical confusion can arise when one constantly attempts to refer everything to Mula-Prakriti or to the primordial interaction between Purusha and Mula-Prakriti. Ancient Greeks might refer to 'Chaos and Cosmos'. Obviously, such states are 'onto-logical' and can only be pointed to by ex. gr. words. To apply logic one places oneself at a 'lower' level that best be carefully and consciously chosen.

Whatever can be captured with words, including various philosophies, religions, traditions, cannot be the unutterable Tao.

Astrology, an applied science of correspondences between celestial and terrestrial phenomena, obviously has to do with much 'later' levels of manifestations.

Best regards,

lihin

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Lihin wrote:

Aristotle is often ignored by adherents of various 'new age' ideologies. He is for their taste far too realistic. Platonic and Neo-Platonic philosophies with their more apparent potential delights in what might be called (no derogation at all intended!) 'spiritual orgasms' are usually preferred by 'new-agers' and persons with similar mind-sets.

Your prejudices betray you Lihin. Of course its undeniable that Aristotle influenced the development of astrological and astronomical thinking in the ancient world. In particular through works like De Caelo. However, in the ancient world the permeation of Platonist and Stoic thought was also vitally important. For example Plato's Timeaus was a pivotal work that heavily influenced classical thinking. Robert Schmidt has even argued that horoscopic astrology developed from the Platonic academy. Similarly, we see the influence of Stoicism in notions of 'cosmic sympathy'. Quite often there was a philosophical eclecticism in important figures like Posidonius who was basically Stoic but influenced by Platonism. Posidonius arguably influenced the development of hellenistic astrology.

Dr Mark Riley has commented that there are definite Stoic influences in the work of Valens. Moreover, the notion that Stoic thought was necessarily wooly as you seem to imply(?) is incorrect. The Stoics often took a very realistic view of the world. For example the astronomer Geminus seems to be Stoic in outlook. Indeed , through their concept of cosmic sympathy the Stoics anticipated the relationship between The Moon and tides on earth centuries before the modern era.

Later neo-Platonist figures such as the astrologer and philosopher Porphyry show the influence of Platonic and Neo-Platnic thought to ancient astrology. Your reference to 'spiritual orgasms' could only apply to the late Neo-Platonism of Iambachus ( Iambachus was a pupil of Porphyry) but he rejected the rational approach of Plotinus and Porphyry and advocated religious experience over logic.

Aristotle assumes much greater significance during the medieval period due to the adoption of Aristotlean philosophy by Islamic and Christian cultures. Similarly, the most Aristotlean of all the ancient astrologers ( Claudius Ptolemy) took on greater significance in this period. This was in large part due to the influence of his non-astrological works such as his great book on astronomy , The Almagest and his Geography. Moreover, Ptolemy's systematic and Aristolean approach to astrology in the Tetrabiblos very much appealed to the Arabs and later Christians as it presented astrology in a highly rational manner. Astrology could therefore be respectably adopted as 'science'. The same outlook justified the adoption of Galen's treatises on medicine which incorporated astrology.

In the renaissance we see a revival of Neo-Platonist ideas in astrology with the translation into Latin the works of Plato and Plotinus. Most prominently by the Florentine astrologer Marsilio Ficino (1433?99). Neoplatonism in this period was not just a revival of Plato's ideas, it was based on Plotinus' created synthesis, which incorporated the works and teachings of Plato, Aristotle, Pythagoras and other Greek philosophers. Neoplatonism in the Renaissance combined the ideas of Christianity and a new awareness of the writings of Plato.

There is nothing especially 'new age' about Platonism or Stoicism or those that adopt their attitudes. By criticising these philosophies you are attacking the intellectual foundations of horoscopic astrology itself.

Mark

Good afternoon,

Have i opined somewhere in this forum that Aristotelian philosophy has been, is or should be the sole basis of Hellenistic and / or other astrologies? In my humble opinion many theosophists and 'new agers' have attempted to attribute certain beliefs to Pythagoras, Plato, etc., for example the immortality of the individual souls, that ignore the relevant doctrine of 'Anima Mundi' (Param-Atman). Many others, alas, often tend to ignore that even the last of the great ancient Greek Neo-Platonic philosophers, ex. gr. Proclus Lycaeus, were, in contrast to Abrahamic theologies, resolute Heathens.

It seems to me that for example Klaudios Ptolomaios (Hellenistic) and Jean-Baptiste Morin de Villefranche (Renaissance) relied strongly on Aristotelian underpinnings, but not exclusively. A salient example might be the classification of the elemental qualities according to active (masculine) and passive (feminine) principles.

Here Aristotle's attributions:

Active (masculine) Hot, Cold

Passive (feminine) Dry, Wet

Here Ptolemy's (and others') astrological attributions:

Active (masculine) Hot, Dry

Passive (feminine) Cold, Wet

By the way, my prior post neither negates the possibility of experiencing 'spiritual orgasms' nor their value. Methinks, however, it doubtful to restrict their realm to the 'religious'. If someone thinks so, how might they be useful for practical astrological delineations?

Best regards,

lihin