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US Presidential Contest 2012-Obama vs Romney
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Geoffrey



Joined: 09 Jul 2012
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Posted: Sun Oct 07, 2012 6:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mark wrote:


Question: Why do so many astrologers consider the Republicans to come under the influence of Jupiter and the Democrats Saturn? Many might assume a liberal party like the Democrats should be under Jupiter and the more conservative Republicans would better fit Saturn. What is the explanation for this paradox? I think I have discovered the astrological explanation for this but would welcome any comments or feedback


Barbara Watters' said that Saturn was for the Democratic party, "because it is the older". (Horary Astrology page 50) Simple as that.

The underlying assumption here seems to be that the two heavyweight parties are given to the two heavyweight planets on that account, and it is just a question of deciding the order in which the planets are assigned to the parties. This is done by saying Saturn goes to the Democrats because it is the older party, and that leaves Jupiter to the Republicans.

Not very profound, I grant you, but there we are...

One might expect that the mascots each party chooses would be ruled by the planet which rules the party. And indeed, Lilly gives Elephants to Jupiter along with, "those beasts which are mild and gentle, yet of great benefit to mankind..." which certainly fits elephants, (CA page 64), and bears to Saturn (CA page 60). It should be noted that Lilly also gives elephants to Saturn, but probably on account of their long lifespan so I would regard this as a secondary significator - and Lilly does not reciprocate by giving bears to Jupiter!

Geoffrey
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Mark
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Posted: Sun Oct 07, 2012 3:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Geoffrey wrote:
Quote:
Barbara Watters' said that Saturn was for the Democratic party, "because it is the older". (Horary Astrology page 50) Simple as that.

The underlying assumption here seems to be that the two heavyweight parties are given to the two heavyweight planets on that account, and it is just a question of deciding the order in which the planets are assigned to the parties. This is done by saying Saturn goes to the Democrats because it is the older party, and that leaves Jupiter to the Republicans.


Not very profound, I grant you, but there we are...


mmmm I am afraid I find this particular theory of the late Barbara Watters very lame in terms of explanatory power. I would suggest we need a better understanding of the social context of the parties origins. This is hard to see through the prism of modern political debate. In the 19th century the Democrats had their demographic stronghold amongst the slave holding states in the south. They were also tied to the agrarian lifetyle of the south. Interestingly both slavery and the land are linked to Saturn. The party was also the definite preference of poor incoming immigrant groups in the 19th century such as the Irish and Germans. I would argue the Democrats have always relied on a voter base which includes strong representation from the poorer more socially excluded members of society or those that identify with them. This again is reflective of the traditional understanding of Saturn.

In contrast The Republican party was founded by anti-slavery activists in the north in the early 1850's who were concerned that new states entering the union would become slave holding. The northern states were economically more industrialised.

Reflecting a Jupiter influence the Republicans have always been a party that thrived on a moral cause or strong belief against a perceived wrong or enemy. Initially, of course this was slavery. However, this trend continued after the civil war. In the later 19th century and early 20th century the Republicans represented prohibitionist 'dry' views which sought to outlaw the sale of alcohol. This reached its peak in 1919 with the introduction of the 18th amendment to the US constitution which made prohibition of alcohol the law. In the 1930's the Republicans opposed the state interventionism or 'socialism' of Franklin Delano Roosevelt in his New Deal programme. After WWII Republicans were generally the most vociferous in the opposition to Communism and the Soviet Union. Arguably, the Republicans lost their focus for some time after the fall of the Berlin wall and the end of Communism. However, they strongly regained a sense of moral purpose after the 9/11 attacks and the 'war on terror' against Islamic terrorism. Moreover, the strongly libertarian 'tea party' grouping within the party have attacked 'pragmatic' Democrats and Republicans who have supported tax increases and greater state intervention. The passion and sense of moral crusade of the tea party is something that has occurred many times in the party's past. The contemporary Republican concern with personal life choice issues such as abortion and same sex marriage comes from the same tendency to introduce religious inspired 'personal morality' issues into politics we see in the 19th and early 20th century anti-slavery and prohibitionist movements.

One might also suggest that Jupiter represents the wealthy profile of many prominent Republican party backers. In general the Republicans are able to call on more support from Wall Street. Certainly, at many times in its history the Republicans have been perceived as strongly aligned with big business interests.

Of course the support of the parties has gone through many changes. Today for example, more blue collar workers support the Republicans while graduates are more likely to vote Democrat. Equally, once staunchly Republican states like California are now predominantly Democrat voting while from the post war period there was a realignment of southern white voters away from the Democrats to the Republicans. Blacks mostly voted Republican from after the Civil War and through the early part of the 20th century. Thatís not surprising when one considers that Abraham Lincoln was the first Republican president, and the white, segregationist politicians who governed Southern states in those days were Democrats. The Democratic Party didnít welcome blacks then, and it wasnít until 1924 that blacks were even permitted to attend Democratic conventions in any official capacity. Most blacks lived in the South, where they were mostly prevented from voting at all. The election of Roosevelt in 1932 marked the beginning of a change. He got 71 percent of the black vote for president in 1936 and did nearly that well in the next two elections. Another major surge to the Democrats came in the 1960's under the presidency of the southern pro civil rights Democrat Lyndon B Johnson.

In religious terms the Democrats have historically tended to garner more support from those from the more centralised liturgical religious groups (Roman Catholic, Episcopalian and German Lutheran) while more individualistic protestant religious groupings have tended to favour the Republicans. Methodists, Congregationalists, Presbyterians, Scandinavian Lutherans and other pietists in the North were tightly linked to the GOP. In sharp contrast, liturgical groups, especially the Catholics, Episcopalians, and German Lutherans, looked to the Democratic Party for protection from pietistic moralism, especially prohibition. While both parties cut across economic class structures, the Democrats were traditionally supported more heavily by its lower tiers.

This tends to be reflected in the parties outlook on state intervention with the Democrats generally more pro-state and the Republicans more sceptical about state intervention. I think the more collectivist, centralised thinking amongst the majority of Democrats picks up the influence of Saturn quite well.

The paradox for the GOP though has been their consistent support for increased defence spending since WWII. This boosted the military-industrial business concerns but substantially increased state spending and the contributed to the US national debt which the GOP theoretically has always opposed.

None of these points actually, explicitly explains the astrology of why the parties have the association with these planets. I think the basic answer is found in the examining the foundational charts of the parties themselves. I intend to explore that in a later post.

Mark
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Last edited by Mark on Sun Oct 07, 2012 9:55 pm; edited 3 times in total
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pankajdubey



Joined: 17 Nov 2006
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Posted: Sun Oct 07, 2012 6:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Saturn- Day- laborers (Gadbury,Lilly,Partridge)
Saturn- Austere and austerity.

That explains the communists, Labour party and Democrats with their base in labour unions, the poor and the down-trodden- as being represented by Saturn.

Saturn also rules the other sect in a religion- so in a way it becomes the dissenter from the main stream.
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Mark
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Posted: Sun Oct 07, 2012 6:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
That explains the communists, Labour party and Democrats with their base in labour unions, the poor and the down-trodden- as being represented by Saturn.


Yes. That was precisely my point. Smile

Quote:
Saturn also rules the other sect in a religion- so in a way it becomes the dissenter from the main stream.


Yes. For example throughout most of the party's history Roman Catholics have supported the Democrats in greater numbers. The party represented a haven for incoming Roman Catholic immigrants in the face of an overwhelmingly Protestant, nativist America in the 19th and early 20th century. Its no accident that the first Roman Catholic President-John F Kennedy was a Democrat. Jewish Americans have also traditionally been very strongly represented in Democrat ranks.

Although religious affiliations in the US have changed somewhat the Democrats rely heavily on more support from racial minorites such as Blacks and Hispanics. Black voters support the Democrats in overwhelming numbers. Based on the votes of white Americans alone the Democrats would have lost every Presidential election since WWII with the exception of 1964. It was therefore predictable that the first black President would be a Democrat. White, evangelical protestants tend to disproportionately support the Republicans. In contrast secular non-religious voters or those following non-Christian religions (Jewish, Muslim, Buddhist, Hindu etc) tend to heavily support the Democrats.

These differences reflect quite well the traditional associations of Jupiter and Saturn.



Mark
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zoidsoft



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Posted: Tue Oct 09, 2012 9:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mark wrote:
Moreover, here is a piece by Chris Brennan and Patrick Watson predicting an Obama win using the hellenistic technique of zodiacal releasing.

http://politicalastrologyblog.com/2012/04/29/prediction-for-the-2012-us-presidential-election/


There's a potential problem with this analysis that I pointed out in my article that you posted earlier in this thread. Brennan/Watson use fortune in Aries and I take it to be in Sagittarius because of what Valens says about fortune and spirit reversing when one of them falls amiss or when the Moon falls below the horizon in a nocturnal chart. It just so happens when you do this reversal again that Obama hits his 10th from fortune right before the 2008 election which is the highest peak that can be attained in this technique.

The problem as I see it is that Romney has focus dates in the zodiacal releasing that hit the very date of the convention and then again on election day and the analysis that Brennan/Watson rely on is that favorable conditions should favor the winner which is not necessarily the case. It is quite possible, due to eminence indicators that the malefics work to better the native at the expense of everyone else in Romney's case, so it is merely a judgement call that I think Obama has a slight edge. The focus dates favor Romney, but the ZR periods significations seem to favor Obama. But I agree that Mercury retrograde on election day is likely to indicate that the election isn't over on that date and will be similar to the 2000 election where a final decision takes a few weeks.
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Chris Brennan



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Posted: Wed Oct 10, 2012 1:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

zoidsoft wrote:

There's a potential problem with this analysis that I pointed out in my article that you posted earlier in this thread. Brennan/Watson use fortune in Aries and I take it to be in Sagittarius because of what Valens says about fortune and spirit reversing when one of them falls amiss or when the Moon falls below the horizon in a nocturnal chart.


A rule which Valens himself doesn't seem to employ, but rather he just cites it as the probable interpretation of a cryptic passage from someone else.
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zoidsoft



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Posted: Wed Oct 10, 2012 2:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Chris Brennan wrote:
zoidsoft wrote:

There's a potential problem with this analysis that I pointed out in my article that you posted earlier in this thread. Brennan/Watson use fortune in Aries and I take it to be in Sagittarius because of what Valens says about fortune and spirit reversing when one of them falls amiss or when the Moon falls below the horizon in a nocturnal chart.


A rule which Valens himself doesn't seem to employ, but rather he just cites it as the probable interpretation of a cryptic passage from someone else.


Which is why I say it is a "potential" problem. I explained all this in my article. What makes this much more likely though is that by reversing the calculation so that fortune falls in Sag, that makes Virgo the 10th from fortune period which is what he was in when elected president in 2008. Valens clearly emphasized that this is the best peak that one can have...

The lack of such an indication with taking the highest office was what bothered me for so long because if one takes Aries as the place of fortune, he reaches his 10th from fortune peak by the early 70's. Saturn being in own domicile should have put him on somebody's radar early on, but it didn't. Instead if you reverse so that fortune is in Sag, he not only becomes president when in 10th from fortune but also reached that same period when appointed president of the Harvard Law Review...
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Chris Brennan



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Posted: Wed Oct 10, 2012 2:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

zoidsoft wrote:


Which is why I say it is a "potential" problem. I explained all this in my article. What makes this much more likely though is that by reversing the calculation so that fortune falls in Sag, that makes Virgo the 10th from fortune period which is what he was in when elected president in 2008. Valens clearly emphasized that this is the best peak that one can have...

The lack of such an indication with taking the highest office was what bothered me for so long because if one takes Aries as the place of fortune, he reaches his 10th from fortune peak by the early 70's. Saturn being in own domicile should have put him on somebody's radar early on, but it didn't. Instead if you reverse so that fortune is in Sag, he not only becomes president when in 10th from fortune but also reached that same period when appointed president of the Harvard Law Review...


I think that his chronology works just fine though, it is just that it is not only about L1 Fortune angles. Instead you have to take into account other factors as well, like reaching the ruler of Spirit, or hitting L2 Fortune angles during both elections. If you look at some of the other presidents you can see that some of them tend to follow this pattern as well. It is not always as simple as just hitting a L1 Fortune period and then calling it a day. Also, take a look at his normal spirit releasing, and see what happens when he gave that speech at the DNC in Denver in 2004, and then try telling me that it isn't compelling.
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zoidsoft



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Posted: Wed Oct 10, 2012 3:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Chris Brennan wrote:
zoidsoft wrote:


Which is why I say it is a "potential" problem. I explained all this in my article. What makes this much more likely though is that by reversing the calculation so that fortune falls in Sag, that makes Virgo the 10th from fortune period which is what he was in when elected president in 2008. Valens clearly emphasized that this is the best peak that one can have...

The lack of such an indication with taking the highest office was what bothered me for so long because if one takes Aries as the place of fortune, he reaches his 10th from fortune peak by the early 70's. Saturn being in own domicile should have put him on somebody's radar early on, but it didn't. Instead if you reverse so that fortune is in Sag, he not only becomes president when in 10th from fortune but also reached that same period when appointed president of the Harvard Law Review...


I think that his chronology works just fine though, it is just that it is not only about L1 Fortune angles. Instead you have to take into account other factors as well, like reaching the ruler of Spirit, or hitting L2 Fortune angles during both elections. If you look at some of the other presidents you can see that some of them tend to follow this pattern as well. It is not always as simple as just hitting a L1 Fortune period and then calling it a day. Also, take a look at his normal spirit releasing, and see what happens when he gave that speech at the DNC in Denver in 2004, and then try telling me that it isn't compelling.


It is the lower subdivisions that I think make the case for a Sag fortune (at least for part of his life - it may switch at times) such as becoming president of the Harvard Law Review in Feb 1990 (Gemini -> Virgo -> Aquarius -> Virgo - hitting peak 2x's). If one takes the 2004 convention speech then he hits Cancer L2 -> Sag L3 the same day. If we take spirit as Sag, then it is Aquarius -> Aries -> Cap -> Sag. This could also read as fortunate considering it as a fortune releasing and less about acts of volition.

In particular I look at the encounter of the domicile or exaltation lord as being important as well as having angular periods relative to fortune at the lower levels and whether they have the same winds (benefic) or contrary winds (malefic). Having fortune in Sag and reaching the domicile lord in Aquarius also fulfills this as a fortune releasing, so I don't see why it is compelling that it has to be spirit.

I've been investigating this technique since 1995 and wrote the software you're currently using so I think I know a bit about what is going on here. Rob Hand said back at the 2nd PHASE Conclave that we should be willing to test out alternative interpretations because at the time we weren't that sure about what we were looking at. I think it is dangerous to take this as cut and dried especially when Valens says that there is an alternative despite it not being apparent in the charts he uses. He may simply have wanted to stick with what works for the student. It is also important that while there are quite a few example charts, significantly fewer of them show fortune in the chart, so it is a bit difficult to go strictly by his example.
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Chris Brennan



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Posted: Wed Oct 10, 2012 4:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I understand why you are making this point, because this a perfect instance where it would really matter, but all I can say is that in my work I've found the standard reversal rule to work quite well. I guess we will see what happens though.
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lihin



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Posted: Wed Oct 10, 2012 4:21 pm    Post subject: Predictions by Ms Bernadette Brady, M.A. Reply with quote

Good day,

The well known authoress and astrologer, Ms Bernadette Brady, M.A., published predictions of the 2012 and 2016 USA presidential elections in 2008 (towards the end of the text) using methods derived from ancient Babylonian astrology. Here is a link to the publication:

http://www.zyntara.com/VisualAstrologyNewsletters/van_Sept2008/VAN_Sept2008.htm

In January 2009 Ms Brady published another article, A place and a time: the inauguration of US Presidents, relevant to the subject of this thread:

http://www.zyntara.com/VisualAstrologyNewsletters/van_Jan2009/VAN_January2009.htm

Best regards,

lihin
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zoidsoft



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Posted: Wed Oct 10, 2012 5:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Chris Brennan wrote:
I understand why you are making this point, because this a perfect instance where it would really matter, but all I can say is that in my work I've found the standard reversal rule to work quite well. I guess we will see what happens though.


Most of the time a standard reversal will work (at least 75% of the time). I wrote the general option in Delphic Oracle (F3, Hellenistic tab | Lots tab - use nocturnal formula only when Moon is above horizon (Valens)) which I generally only try when the lot falls amiss in nocturnal charts as it did in the case of Obama (in Aries 3rd with Mars in aversion). I guess the exaltation lord didn't bail out the lot because it was contrary to sect. But that isn't what caused me to check; it was only by working with fortune in Aries and not seeing the expected peaks at the lower levels that caused me to think there was something wrong. The birther controversy came out around the same time so I just put everything on hold. After watching the PBS special on the bank bailouts, it became clear...
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waybread



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Posted: Wed Oct 10, 2012 8:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Unique_astrology, I am not sure under what conditions Congress could pick the next president. It doesn't work like a parliamentary system. The President (executive) and Congress (legislative) belong to different branches of government that are separated under the US Constitution. Then the political parties are separate from the government yet again. It comes down to Electoral College votes.

I am wondering if anyone sees an inconclusive outcome on election day, where the winner may not be known for some time, as happened with Gore vs. Bush; given astrologers sitting on both sides of the fence. The polls are so close now that the outcome may boil down not only to a handful of "battleground states" but to specific counties and even precincts within those states. A recount takes time and may wind up in a state Supreme Court.

Essentially, doesn't an election day chart merely tell you who is having a nicer day or who has risen to a position of more public attention? Wouldn't winning an election come down to a question of astrological probabilities, given the various techniques that could reasonably be applied? What with the rise of early voting and possible recounts, the actual election day has less meaning in 2012 than it did in years past. I also wonder about the desirability of doing relocation charts for the candidates to Washington, DC or some other place. So a dynamic approach to a suite of charts may be desireable.

The presidency has been a real poisoned chalice for some. I am also reminded that President Truman heard from the press on election night in 1948 that Dewey had won the election.
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GR



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Posted: Wed Oct 10, 2012 9:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

This is what happens if and when there's a tie in the Electoral College.

http://www.270towin.com/blog/electoral-college/what-happens-if-there-is-a-tie-in-the-electoral-college

As a caveat, the House of Representatives can only vote in state blocs, not individually, so the President would be elected by either candidate that got 26 states minimum.

The Senate would vote normally for Vice President. If the House doesn't choose by Jan 20th, the Vice President chosen by the Senate becomes Acting President until the House decides. If they also fail to choose, then the Speaker of the House becomes Acting President until either the House or Senate decides.
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waybread



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Posted: Wed Oct 10, 2012 9:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

OMG, GR (and Unique Astrology), I stand corrected. Congress hasn't played a decisive role during my lifetime, though.

I just looked at simple secondary progressed charts for the two candidates. (This is the quick-and-dirty modern astrology method.) I have to say Romney's looks somewhat better. Rats.
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