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US Presidential Contest 2012-Obama vs Romney
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Mark
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Joined: 30 Sep 2005
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Posted: Sat Oct 13, 2012 11:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lihin wrote:
Quote:
Frankly, may one express reservations about publishing mundane delineations on such topics? Humans generally identify intensely with their countries and their political parties, harbour strong patriotic feelings, are subject to more or less indoctrinating inland mass media, etc. "My country right or wrong" is an example of what arises. Foreigners tend to have images of other countries - in this particular case of the USofA - which seldom match those of the citizens wearing rose-coloured eye-glasses.

One may recall that leading British astrologers predicted peace in 1939 although the ingress charts permitted other conclusions.


I think you make a very valid point here. Arguably, no branch of astrology is as liable to 'contamination' through personal prejudice than this one. I have explained here on the forum before how I think my personal political preferences stopped me seeing the likeliest outcome of the 2010 UK British general election. I knew from looking at the ingress and polling charts that a coalition was highly likely. However, my personal preferences stopped me seeing it was more likely to to feature the right of centre Conservatives than the left of centre Labour party. This despite the fact Mercury ( Lord 10) was combust in the Aries ingress chart!

I dont think I am in any way unique here. I think even some well known astrological 'noteables' out there are just as much at risk of such beliefs colouring their delineations. Maybe , it would help if we all owned up before offering up an analysis where our personal political loyalties lay. That is probably more the case when the analysis concerns our own country. At the very least I think we all need to take an honest appraisal of our political stance before posting on such issues.

Perhaps we shouldn't feel too guilty. Even the great William Lilly clearly succumbed to this tendency in some of his political horaries.

Quote:
In my humble opinion Mark has mentioned the valid difference between events underpinning a country's myths and sense of common identity, and those establishing its structures. The former more indicate the dream, the latter the reality. Here is a tropical chart of the entry of the Constitution of the USofA into effect on 4 March 1789.


Glad someone agrees. I always despair when I see astrologers describe one of the various 4th of July charts as 'The USA chart'. As if the matter is as simple as all that. I guess some people like to see life in black and white terms. I prefer more subtle nuances and shades of grey.

Mark

PS: Thanks for posting up the charts. Regarding the US Constitution charts and Presidency: The original seat of US government when the new constitution took effect in 1789 was New York city. George Washington was sworn in as President in New York in 1789 and the House of Representatives and Senate first met there too. The new capitol of Washington was not constructed until the late 1790's and Congress did not meet there until 1800. I dont personally relocate such charts and still locate them for New York City.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Washington,_D.C.
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james_m



Joined: 05 Dec 2011
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Location: vancouver island

Posted: Sun Oct 14, 2012 2:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

hi lihin and mark,

lihin, what is the basis for the march 4 1789 chart?

mark, i look forward to you articulating the rationale for a rectified time of 120pm for the april 30 1789 presidents chart.

as for bias, i don't think anyone escapes this, in spite of the protests of astrologers at the thought.. better off to admit to a degree of subjectivity right off the top, then to think one is 100% objective and that it is all based on only the astrology..
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Mark
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Posted: Sun Oct 14, 2012 3:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

James_M wrote:
Quote:
lihin, what is the basis for the march 4 1789 chart?


It was my suggestion James. I have been promoting this chart on Skyscript for years. See this previous thread where I discuss this chart in some detail.

http://skyscript.co.uk/forums/viewtopic.php?t=6121

Legally 00:00 hours on March 4th 1789 is when the USA constitution came into effect. This is not when it was signed or ratified by the states but when it came into legal operation. Oddly, Rodden Astrodatabank neglect this chart and only lists the rectified chart for the date of signing in 1788. The 1789 chart doesn't require rectification. Hence it avoids the problem with so many charts. I also believe that charts based on when constitutions take effect are generally the most reliable kind of chart. They are not based on the subjective 'birth of a nation' notion but the political reality of when a new governmental structure began. I should say I am not the first to strongly advocate this chart. Its used by a few American mundane astrologers. Dane Rudhyar proposed this chart decades ago.

Quote:
mark, i look forward to you articulating the rationale for a rectified time of 120pm for the april 30 1789 presidents chart.


I will. It is partly based on research that the New York newspaper source Campion relied upon was wrong. There are several independent sources dating the time to 1.00pm at the very earliest. Looking at the charts of numerous Presidents I am convinced the Presidential chart has a Virgo ASC and Gemini MC.

Quote:
As for bias, I don't think anyone escapes this, despite the protests of astrologers at the thought.. better off to admit to a degree of subjectivity right off the top, then to think one is 100% objective and that it is all based on only the astrology.


Indeed!

Mark
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Last edited by Mark on Sun Oct 14, 2012 12:26 pm; edited 1 time in total
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waybread



Joined: 05 Mar 2009
Posts: 569
Location: Canada

Posted: Sun Oct 14, 2012 4:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Great comments, Mark!

I sometimes think that the subjective nature of astrology is greatly under-estimated. Sure, we look at degrees, angles, calculations, and astronomical phenomena. It all seems so very objective.

But how many of us, in the process of doing mundane astrology, compare our charts with those of the candidates or nations we study? If we do the synastry, we might understand better our affinity for one candidate or hoped-for political outcome over another.

And of course, some things a chart can't tell you. Did the astrologer grow up in a working-class neighbourhood, in which his roots remain intact? Did she have a privileged upbringing, with little contact with poverty and ethnic minorities? Is she active in a political movement?

Time for some soul-searching.
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Mark
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Posted: Sun Oct 14, 2012 6:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have just opened a new separate thread entitled:

'Mercury Retrograde and US Presidential Election Outcomes':

http://skyscript.co.uk/forums/viewtopic.php?t=6997

I decided this topic required a thread of its own as I had quite a lot of information to relate beyond the space of a normal thread post. It features my research into US Presidential elections going back to 1856.

Thanks

Mark
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''Man is troubled not by events, but by the meaning he gives them"

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Last edited by Mark on Tue Oct 16, 2012 2:09 am; edited 1 time in total
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Mark
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Posted: Tue Oct 16, 2012 2:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Its very interesting how the astrological community is split on the outcome of this election. I guess its hardly the first time but a lot of astrologers have put their reputations on the line here. I really admire that. While the majority favour Obama quite a few have come out for Romney.

This summary from the Darkstar astrology website is handy.

http://darkstarastrology.com/2012-election-predictions/comment-page-1/#comments

I am aware of at least three traditional astrologers who think Romney is likely to win. Steven Birchfield, David Hernandez and Ema Kurent.

Steven Birchfield's comments are on a Facebook group so I cannot reproduce them here without his permission. However, here are the links to the sites of David Hernandez and Ema Kurent.

http://imprimaturstellarum.blogspot.co.uk/2012/10/the-demise-of-presidency-2012.html

http://www.emakurent.com/en-us/articles/whowinstheusa2012presidentialelection.aspx

I will be delineating the Aries and Libra ingress charts myself here too. Even at this stage though I have to say I dont think the 2012 Aries Ingress necessarily indicates victory for Obama the way Nina Gryphon has predicted.

Mark
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''Man is troubled not by events, but by the meaning he gives them"

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Last edited by Mark on Tue Oct 16, 2012 6:25 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Nixx



Joined: 10 Dec 2011
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Posted: Tue Oct 16, 2012 5:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Has any astrologer been able to predict this election successfully. Stats or significance wise I guess we would be looking at a 6 or probably a 7 out of 8 success rate. So from 1980 to now?
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###



Joined: 08 Jul 2004
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Posted: Tue Oct 16, 2012 7:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

. . .

Last edited by ### on Tue Oct 23, 2012 11:45 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Nixx



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Posted: Tue Oct 16, 2012 1:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kirk wrote:
That's an odd thing to ask before the election has even taken place. It's my understanding that the prizes will be distributed to the winning astrologers after the election results have been established.


According to Wiki the 1st one took place in 1788. Assuming an average astrological activity of 40 years that's 10 'goes' . So the prize goes to............................ ?
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Mark
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Posted: Tue Oct 16, 2012 6:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Has any astrologer been able to predict this election successfully. Stats or significance wise I guess we would be looking at a 6 or probably a 7 out of 8 success rate. So from 1980 to now?


Hi Nixx,

What you propose sounds an interesting exercise once all the the results are in when the astrological post mortem can begin. Right now though I want to hold off the bean counting and focus on the drama of the event and the challenge of actually predicting the outcome!

Thanks

Mark
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''Man is troubled not by events, but by the meaning he gives them"

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Mark
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Posted: Tue Oct 16, 2012 10:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

As the second Presidential debate takes place tonight I thought I would take a look at Mitt Romney.

There has been reams of astrological analysis on his transits, progressions and directions.

I thought I would take a different tack and see how compatible his nativity is with the USA Federal Government chart. Of course Romney has already been a state Governor which fits him into the Federal Government. However, I would expect a successful Presidential candidate to have a strong connection to this chart.

Obama certainly does but that is unsurprising as he is already President. So how does Romney nativity fit with this chart? Astrologically does he have the right synastry to run the US government?

I think the answer is an emphatic yes. Romney has extremely strong connections to this chart.



As you can see Romney's Moon-Jupiter conjunction sits close to the ASC degree of this chart. His North Node is close to the Federal government Moon. Both these elements indicate connections to the American people. Romney's Mercury in Pisces is Rx and conjunct the Federal Govt Saturn. This obviously reflects Romney's conservative profile but also shows an ability to connect to a conservative vision of the USA. The Rx Mercury connection may also reflect Romney's desire to 'turn back the tide' of American liberalism under Obama. As a Mormon Romney has very conservative values that some Americans might see as an regressive and backward looking. Romney's Sun is on the US Govt Mercury which is Rx. Again a sign that is is well attuned to the American political system. Romney's difficult Saturn is Leo is retrograde and applying to the Federal Government Uranus in the 9th house by quadrant. This could suggest legal issues or International problems if Romney becomes President. Romney's rather malefic Saturn could fit the profile of an electoral dispute.

The main thing his chart lacks is a good link to the Federal Govt MC in Virgo. Romney's only close aspect is from his out of sect Mars which opposes the Federal government MC. This seems another indication of Romey's potential to have a powerful but possibly contentious effect on American government. Its noteable that his Moon-Jupiter Conjunction in Scorpio squares the radix Mars in Aquarius.

In part I think all these Mars/Saturn links may represent the internal opposition Romney faces from the more liberal elements in the USA. Perhaps all this Mars serves to frustrate his ambitions. Plus Romney's ASC is on the south node of the Federal Government Chart. Equally, though this would fit the profile of a President in involved in something like an aggressive foreign policy or facing internal threats like assassination or terrorism.

Mark
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Mark
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Posted: Mon Oct 22, 2012 7:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

With the last presidential debate coming up I feel its time for another chart!

This time I want to look at the the US Presidential chart sometimes shortened to the inelegantly titled 'POTUS chart' (President of the United States=PTUS).

It dates from 30th April 1789 when the first President George Washington was inaugurated in New York city (Washington DC hadn't been built yet).

Its the foundational chart for the institution of the US Presidency and therefore any Presidential candidate needs good synastry to this chart. Obama suppoters best look away now as unfortunately for them Mitt Romney has great synastry with this chart.

Here is the chart.



Romney links to this chart are again numerous. A quick summary:

1 Romney's ASC on POTUS MC
2 Romney's Moon-Jupiter conj on POTUS chart North Node
3 Romney's Sun on POTUS Saturn
4 Romney's Sun trine POTUS Jupiter
5 Romney's Mercury trine POTUS Moon
6 Romney's Moon-Jupiter conj in Whole sign trine to POTUS Moon-Jupiter
7 Romney's Mars trine POTUS Lot of Fortune

More challenging for Romney's are the following:

1 Romney's MC square the POTUS Sun
2 Romney's Venus square the POTUS Sun
3 Romney's Lot of Fortune square the POTUS Sun.
4 Romney's Uranus square the POTUS Saturn.
5 Romney's Pluto square POTUS Sun.

Romney's strong link to this chart, plus the Federal Government chart give me reason to believe Romney has a good chance of winning this election. The Aries and Libra ingress charts also strengthen this view for me. I will take a look at those later on the thread.

Note: Nicholas Campion cites an estimated time of 12:45pm but my research has shown this is historically incorrect and the actual time is later. I use the time of 1.20 LMT similar to Dane Rudhyar and Zip Dobyns. The important point for me is that this chart has an early Gemini MC. I am open to a slightly earlier time that retains this. Lots of US presidents have strong links with a Virgo ASC and Gemini MC . Alternatively planets linked in such as Obama's Moon in Gemini. I dont intend to debate my choice of time here but I do plan to open a thread on the US Presidential chart once the Presidential election is over. Especially if I am correct and Romney becomes the next President.
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GR



Joined: 14 May 2005
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Location: USA

Posted: Thu Oct 25, 2012 5:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

While this is non-astrological, and also partakes of the "devil's math" Wink, I do think this sort of statistical polling analysis is useful to compare & contrast these various astrological predictions.

http://fivethirtyeight.blogs.nytimes.com
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Mark
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Posted: Thu Oct 25, 2012 10:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Here is a link to a New York Times article I put up already. The really cool bit though is the 2nd page onwards where you can interactively drag the states (weighted) by electoral college between Obama and Romney to play out the different scenarios. It totalises the electoral college votes by state as you go. I intend to use this on election night. Remember the winning margin is 270 electoral college votes.

http://elections.nytimes.com/2012/electoral-map

Ok maybe I am just sad that I love this kind of thing. Embarassed

I think a lot of the media coverage I have seen is flawed. A lot of fuss over Ohio and Florida as the decisive swing state battlefields for the result. They are absolutely crucial for for Romney. However, even if Obama loses Florida, Ohio, Virginia, North Carolina and Indiana he can still win on electoral college votes! Romney needs to sweep up nearly all the swing states to win.

Mark
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waybread



Joined: 05 Mar 2009
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Posted: Fri Oct 26, 2012 12:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Not sad at all, Mark. I'm a news junky myself.

Unfortunately, what little astrology research time I have is being spent on that 3rd house thread, but for anyone w/ time for some muindane astrology, this election is predicted to be extremely close.

It would be interesting to look at presidential elections where one candidate lost by a landslide, and see whether the charts look dramatically different than for close elections. Examples might be Adlai Stevenson II, George McGovern and Barry Goldwater.
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