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Correct time to calculate any horary!
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Clinton Soule



Joined: 14 Sep 2008
Posts: 471
Location: Reno, Nevada

Posted: Sat Sep 07, 2013 10:46 pm    Post subject: Correct time to calculate any horary! Reply with quote

When it comes to horary I diligently try to stay within the confines of Traditionalism because as my fore-fathers of horary they well knew the subject.

However many today are taking the time when the querant asked the question and Not when the astrologer understands the query.

I think this may be a Modernistic method as everything I've read states otherwise as the artist's time of understanding of the query was the Traditional approach.

One can see the quagmire from this thread:

http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum/showthread.php?t=66689

As many of you know and agree, Deborah Holding's Skyscript.co.uk Forums has some very dedicated artists who have great insights because we study what Traditional authors wrote and try to maintain their integrity of the art.

What is your opinions?


Clinton Garrett Soule

Wise men truly know how little they know
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james_m



Joined: 05 Dec 2011
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Location: vancouver island

Posted: Sat Sep 07, 2013 11:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

hi clinton,
first off - thanks for your comment on the other thread. i was listening to the chris brennan interview with kenneth johnson earlier today. around the 55 minute mark of the interview as i recall), they start talking about horary and an idea that horary might have started in india.. there is no conclusive answer drawn from the interview, but some interesting things are said that i thought geoffrey here might enjoy.. perhaps you would find something worthwhile in the ideas discussed on that interview that mark posted in the news bulletin section too!

in direct answer to your question, it seems to me there is some wisdom in the idea that the moment a person asks a question, the moment will tell something about the nature of that question as it relates to the person. i was considering this very recently on a thread started by starlightstarbright in terms of the timing of her question.. now, i now this isn't orthodox horary and really it is more about questions and finding answers and an approach that i have used that i think has merit - examining the moment the question is made publicly.. so while this approach might not conform with more standard views on horary, i still think there is some meaning to be had in examining the moment a question is asked, especially if you overlap it with a persons chart if you happen to have a chart for the person asking the question!
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Larxene



Joined: 22 Sep 2012
Posts: 221

Posted: Sun Sep 08, 2013 5:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Both methods will likely have their respective analytical reasons, but if the techniques come from the tradition, you may find that following its procedures faithfully will yield better results.

What I would suggest is to experiment with both (i.e. create two charts) for a large number of horary work (at least 30 questions), then compare the overall results you got with the two approaches to see which is more accurate.


~Larxene~
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Clinton Soule



Joined: 14 Sep 2008
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Location: Reno, Nevada

Posted: Sun Sep 08, 2013 9:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

james_m stated:

Quote:
was listening to the chris brennan interview with kenneth johnson earlier today. around the 55 minute mark of the interview as i recall), they start talking about horary and an idea that horary might have started in india.. there is no conclusive answer drawn from the interview, but some interesting things are said that i thought geoffrey here might enjoy..


Although when Anthony Louis wrote his first horary book, then a Moderne, he did cite several indications of horary developing about 2000 years ago in the Fertile Cresent. And Tony louis has posted since as a devout Traditionalist via this board, I'm glad he upgraded.

Since there may be a few with Jupiter, Sag, or 9th house prejudices againt Biblical scripture, it has croosed my mind often in the songs King David wrote of Israel that one group in particular is obvious horary poetry:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David

Quote:
according to the Hebrew Bible, was the second king of the United Kingdom of Israel, and according to the New Testament Gospels of Matthew and Luke, an ancestor of Jesus. His life is conventionally dated to c. 1040970 BCE, his reign over Judah c. 10101002 BCE, and his reign over the United Kingdom of Israel c. 1002970 BCE.[1]


If you have read the beginning of the 19th chapter, the first few verses it echoes horary astrology to any of us that understand the art; so it may be at least 3000 years old by his account.

james_m:

Quote:
...so while this approach might not conform with more standard views on horary, i still think there is some meaning to be had in examining the moment a question is asked, especially if you overlap it with a persons chart if you happen to have a chart for the person asking the question!


Although no Traditional authors that I'm aware of did this when Lilly in 3rd house matters chooses '..the time he heard the rumour..', and in his 6th house queries he tells the '...student to note the time the sick or stricken person laid down..'. This deviation by Lilly hints to as you say that maybe the time the querant asks could be a horary's time as Lilly showed that he deviates in the two prior mentioned examples mentioned by Lilly.

Larxene states:

Quote:
Both methods will likely have their respective analytical reasons, but if the techniques come from the tradition, you may find that following its procedures faithfully will yield better results.


Yes, I'm having a hard time justifying using the time the querant asked as typically horary has more importance and sincerity by the artist than many querants!

Clinton Garrett Soule

Wise men truly know how little they know
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Tom
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Posted: Mon Sep 09, 2013 11:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lilly writes on page 121 of CA
Quote:

" ... the Question then shall be taken for radical, or fit to be judged, when as the Lord of the hour at the time of proposing the Question, and erecting the figure ...."


I hate parsing Lilly because he wasn't a lawyer writing up a contract and I don't want to read too much into his words. He does say "at the time of proposing the question." In his day that would require the presence of an astrologer. Lilly's practice consisted of erecting a chart for the day and moving it along as the day progressed and the querents appeared one after the other. In his day timepieces were usually limited to sun dials and clocks in the public square that were notoriously unreliable (at least compared to our own), so when the question popped into the mind of the querent, he wouldn't have known what time of day it was with any precision. Neither did Lilly when the querent sat down in front of him and asked, but he might have been closer. In other words horary in his day, when we compare it to natal astrology, was a bit sloppy when it comes to timing.

The importance of excruciatingly precise timing for horary is self imposed, and a result of the comparison to natal astrology. Both are considered inception charts. The birth of the individual is the same as the birth of the question. But is that so? I cannot be born more than once or born in more than one place at one time - at least in this lifetime. Reincarnation is another story. But where does it say that there is only one planetary alignment that will answer a question? It might be that now is a great time to learn whether or not she loves me or where the cat is, but is it the only time? I don't think so.

We are all taught that Lilly's Fish horary is one of the finest examples of the art, yet it isn't a horary. There is no question. Lilly labels it "Fish Stolen" not "Who stole my fish and where are they?" He sets the chart for the time he is informed of the theft. Sue Ward called this an event chart, and that is a lot more accurate than calling it a horary.

We are told the chart is set for 8:45 AM. How accurate is that? Setting this chart for 10 minutes earlier might have given the same result. I'd have to check to be sure. I'm sure there are some questions that can be answered 24 hours later or earlier if the Moon is not heavily involved in the answer and significators don't change signs. Not all - just some. The point is that questions are not like births. I can draw my first breath only once. The chart is now set. But the answer to my question has no such limitations. There is no one instant only that can be helpful to me.

Look at the considerations before judgment. If we follow them they tell us that proposing the question perfectly to an astrologer may yield a moment that is not good for answering. But nowhere does it say that I can't ask again. If a question is asked when early degrees are on the ASC, the judgment is that it is too early to ask the question - not, "Sorry, you blew it. You'll never get your answer." But I can't go back into the womb waiting for a better time to be born.

We're locked into the inception idea via Ptolemy, who didn't mention horary. Horary is different. It is what it is, and trying to make it into some form of natal astrology that must follow all of the same rules wherever possible, is like trying to pound the proverbial square peg into the round hole
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Larxene



Joined: 22 Sep 2012
Posts: 221

Posted: Mon Sep 09, 2013 1:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I do agree that being accurate down to the minute is likely unnecessary, but does it really not matter when we cast the chart? We're talking about time differences ranging from a few hours to a week or two here.

Hmmm, is it really a matter of practicality in Lilly's time, to use the time the astrologer receives the question?

I guess a lot of this also depends on whether you believe in divine intervention and inspiration, and your ideas about fate itself.

Regardless of beliefs, I still insist that one uses the empirical method so that one can compare the results of the two methods.
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Tom
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Posted: Mon Sep 09, 2013 2:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
but does it really not matter when we cast the chart?


I did not say it didn't matter. I said there was more than one possible time to obtain the desired result. That is quite a bit different. More than one possible time is not the same as "any old time will do."

Cast a chart for a particular time and place. Then cast a chart for the same place 24 hours later. The Moon will have moved 12-15 degrees or more, but it is likely that the house cusps are nearly the same and the other planets have only shifted slightly in position. If that small shift either on the cusps or for the planets, does not result in a sign change, and we don't need the Moon, we can use both charts to answer the same question and we'll get the same answer. And even this is "iffy" because we don't use every planet and every house in a a horary, so if the significators don't change then we'll get the same answer. We can't do this indefinitely of course, and all I'm trying to do is make the point that the correct answer to a horary question is not a one shot deal, i.e., the querent gets only one time to get the correct answer before that it is too early, and after that it's too late to ever get the right answer. We may be making too much of a big deal of trying to pinpoint the time. Consistency is probably more important.
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Clinton Soule



Joined: 14 Sep 2008
Posts: 471
Location: Reno, Nevada

Posted: Mon Sep 09, 2013 9:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tom stated:

Quote:
The importance of excruciatingly precise timing for horary is self imposed, and a result of the comparison to natal astrology. Both are considered inception charts. The birth of the individual is the same as the birth of the question. But is that so? I cannot be born more than once or born in more than one place at one time - at least in this lifetime. Reincarnation is another story. But where does it say that there is only one planetary alignment that will answer a question? It might be that now is a great time to learn whether or not she loves me or where the cat is, but is it the only time? I don't think so.


This is why I questioned why so many horary authors prior to 1700 insisted that the time the artist understood the query was the time to calculate the horary.

Yet Lilly deviated in:

1) Third house matters regarding 'time he heard of the rumour

2) in 6th house queries, the time the sick person laid down

Tom:

Quote:
Lilly's practice consisted of erecting a chart for the day and moving it along as the day progressed and the querents appeared one after the other. In his day timepieces were usually limited to sun dials and clocks in the public square that were notoriously unreliable (at least compared to our own), so when the question popped into the mind of the querent, he wouldn't have known what time of day it was with any precision. Neither did Lilly when the querent sat down in front of him and asked, but he might have been closer. In other words horary in his day, when we compare it to natal astrology, was a bit sloppy when it comes to timing.


I've questioned for a long time how they pinpointed the time with sundials hundreds of years before Lilly; this explains a lot and the re-calculated horarys in CA that are off a few degrees.

So I'm understanding from this great thread that the time the querant asked can be used but there is possibly greater accuracy if we used the vanguard method of the time the astrologer understood the query?


Clinton Garrett Soule

Wise men truly know how little they know


Last edited by Clinton Soule on Wed Sep 11, 2013 11:21 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Tom
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Posted: Mon Sep 09, 2013 9:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sundials I understand were a bit more precise than we give them credit, but nowhere near as precise as a modern timepiece. There were also water clocks. Let's say Lilly began his work day at 9:00 am. He could easily calculate a chart for 9:00 am that would be as accurate as the tables of the day would allow. From what I've read about his diaries (I've never read them directly) he saw a client for about 15 minutes. He could then determine, perhaps visually, how the 9:00 am chart would look at 9:15 and use that, and so on. Charts might be calculated a couple of times per day. That was good enough.

I don't know that the time the astrologer understood the query is the vanguard method. Lilly would have understood most questions the moment they were asked. It's just that in his day people were not governed by clocks because, for the most part, there were none.

I'll pass along a personal anecdote. I once received a horary question by e-mail. I understood it, set the chart, but for one reason or another I didn't get back to it. I accidentally deleted it and only realized the next day or later that I lost what should have been the correct time for the chart. I cast another chart to replace it. It might have been the best horary judgment I ever made from a chart cast more than 24 hours or maybe 48 hours or more, after I understood the question. Go figure.
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Larxene



Joined: 22 Sep 2012
Posts: 221

Posted: Tue Sep 10, 2013 4:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think the astrologer should attempt to understand the question before casting the chart, unless the time it takes for you to understand the question is just, say, 10-20 minutes.

Some questions, you really need to ponder about and collect more information before you seek divine information. Like, if you wanted to make a major purchase (anything that uses up a significant amount of one's savings can be considered a 'major' purchase), ideally you should seek to understand the product offerings of different companies, the specific features, what you really need from the product, whether there is a money back guarantee, etc.

Some people might be tempted to seek divine information without first doing some research, which is why I would cast a chart AFTER I have obtained all of the relevant information.


~Larxene~
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johannes susato



Joined: 04 Jan 2009
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Posted: Tue Sep 10, 2013 11:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I thought it would be interesting to read, what Lilly wrote about the subject.

William Lilly, CA, beginning p. 166:

"Of the time of receiving any Q U E S T I O N.

It hath been disputed largely amongst the Arabians, who
were excellent in the resolution of Horary Questions, what
time the Astrologer should take for the ground of his Question,
whether that time when the Querent first comes into ones
House or Closet, or first salutes the Artist, whether that is to be
admitted for the most proper time or erecting a Figure, and
giving Judgement thereupon.
Though some have consented to this opinion, yet I could
never be satisfied herein either with reason or experience: for
let us admit one comes to demands a Resolution of me, and we
converse together a good while; but in the end, some occasion
intervenes, and we depart: I hope no sound Judgment will
allow of this time to be the Radix of a Question (whenas none
is really demanded) viz. at what time he first saw me, or entered
my house and speake with me.
Without doubt the true houre of receiving any Question is
then, when the Querent propounds his desire unto the Astrolo-
ger, even that very moment of time, in my opinion, is to be ac-
cepted: for let us suppose a Letter is sent or delivered unto me,
wherein I am desired to resolve some doubts; perhaps I receive
the Letter into my hands at three of clock in any day of the
week, but in regard of some occasions, doe not read it untill
four or five hours after; that very hour and minute of hour
when I break it open, and perceive the intention of the Querent,
is the time to which I ought to erect my Figure, and from
thence to draw mine Astrologicall Judgment: This way and man-
ner have I practised, and found successe answerable: And
whereas Bonatus and some others doe give warning that the
Astrologian judge not his owne Question, and say he cannot tell
how to accept of a question from himselfe; this I conceive was
his reason, Because he thought the Artist would be partiall to
himselfe in his judgment: Verily I am of a contrary opinion
and have found by many experiments, that at what hour the

167
mind or intention of the Astrologer is heavily perplexed with,
or concerning the successe of any matter wherein himselfe is
really concerned, I say he may with great reason accept of that
hour for the true time of erecting his Scheame of Heaven, and
he may (if not partiall) as well judge of that Figure erected by
himselfe, as of any other; but herein I advised him to lay aside
all love and partiality unto his owne Cause."
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Paul
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Posted: Wed Sep 11, 2013 3:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm not saying this is the right way, but the way I do it now is to take the time at my location when I can understand the question and formulate my judgement - even if I wait until a few hours later or the next day to actually write it all up or deliver it back to someone else.

I'm curious though, shouldn't this be in the horary forum?
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Clinton Soule



Joined: 14 Sep 2008
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Posted: Wed Sep 11, 2013 11:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tom stated:

Quote:
I once received a horary question by e-mail. I understood it, set the chart, but for one reason or another I didn't get back to it. I accidentally deleted it and only realized the next day or later that I lost what should have been the correct time for the chart. I cast another chart to replace it. It might have been the best horary judgment I ever made from a chart cast more than 24 hours or maybe 48 hours or more, after I understood the question. Go figure.


This really makes one think about the time,...sounds a little fishy like maybe Lilly's Fish Story as you say which really isn't a horary but an event chart. I'm going to have to re-read Lilly on that one for there are times reading Lilly where I find he is so into the art as if he may have gone into sort of a trance like Edgar Cayce in that maybe he was so sensitive to the planets vibrations that possibly he actually felt the ascendant changing signs through the day or the Moon as it left one sign and into another. It just makes one wonder how in so few years he got so adept.

Johannes pointed out from Lilly in CAI, on pages 166-167 :

Quote:
....And
whereas Bonatus and some others doe give warning that the
Astrologian judge not his owne Question, and say he cannot tell
how to accept of a question from himselfe; this I conceive was
his reason, Because he thought the Artist would be partiall to
himselfe in his judgment: Verily I am of a contrary opinion
and have found by many experiments, that at what hour the

167
mind or intention of the Astrologer is heavily perplexed with,
or concerning the successe of any matter wherein himselfe is
really concerned, I say he may with great reason accept of that
hour for the true time of erecting his Scheame of Heaven, ...


It would appear in regards to Lilly's 4th house matters, speacificly '..Master B's Houses..', that Bonatus was correct at least upon that one particular horary for Lilly really lusted with that wanton Taurus desire to have, to own that property which was a perpetual headache I understand from his writting of such.

I'm wondering though was Lilly the first to go out on the limb on this as he by the document Johannes has given in certain parts of Ca he violates this as Tom mentioned about the fish and I have cited about rumours and Lilly's sick bed horary.

If in Guildo Bonatti's time and before, if no artistcalculated any horary other than when he understood the query, would that imply Lilly may have been stepping accross the line, as if this may have been a futuristic Moderne techniqe? And I'm Not being blasphemous to Tradition, I'm only wondering who or where this concept first started?

IE. For example, Barbarra Watters is said to be the first to write about the strictures against even bothering to read a horary is Early or Late Asc.; and I'm not putting down a fellow astrologer in the least. Many here via Skyscript Forums correct me for horary's benefit which I truly appreaciate!


Clinton Garrett Soule

Wise Men truly know how little they know

http://www.newsreview.com/reno/star-reader/content?oid=22904
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johannes susato



Joined: 04 Jan 2009
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Posted: Fri Sep 13, 2013 4:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tom wrote:
We are all taught that Lilly's Fish horary is one of the finest examples of the art, yet it isn't a horary. There is no question. Lilly labels it "Fish Stolen" not "Who stole my fish and where are they?" He sets the chart for the time he is informed of the theft. Sue Ward called this an event chart, and that is a lot more accurate than calling it a horary.

Tom, can you say, please, where Sue Ward has claimed this?
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Clinton Soule



Joined: 14 Sep 2008
Posts: 471
Location: Reno, Nevada

Posted: Sat Sep 14, 2013 12:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Stolen Fish contraversy:

Johannes, I'm not certain if this is what you are wanting yet the websites may provide some leads.

http://www.philosophical-investigations.org/William_Lilleys_charts

http://leephd.blogspot.com/2006/07/astro-fundamentalism.html

http://books.google.com/books?id=dCEAAAAAQAAJ&pg=PA238&lpg=PA238&dq='lillys+stolen+fish+horary'&source=bl&ots=gBCNbxrxZQ&sig=wweQGQBfMgE8eefoKTyo8U-gsSo&hl=en&sa=X&ei=LKwzUpnBEOGjigKjr4HIAg&ved=0CFcQ6AEwCDgK#v=onepage&q='lillys%20stolen%20fish%20horary'&f=false

http://www.astrodivination.com/teaching/magichorary/800x600/slide6.html

http://www.astrodivination.com/teaching/magichorary/800x600/slide7.html
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