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Lilly's Considerations
compiled by D. Houlding
Book II of Carmen Astrologicum by Dorotheus
translated by David Pingree
Compiled by Deborah Houlding
The Babylonian Astrolabe: the Calendar of Creation, by Rumen K. Kolev
Reviewed by Gill Zukovskis

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Will we win the court case?

 
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arabianfundi



Joined: 19 Feb 2007
Posts: 19

Posted: Fri Sep 28, 2012 2:13 pm    Post subject: Will we win the court case? Reply with quote

I am not sure how to copy/paste the chart from Solar Fire, would someone help me with this please?

27 Sept 2012
4.09pm
Klerksdorp, SAFR
26*58'S
26*39'E
Asc 08*33' Pisces

Background: The Querent bought a shop from the opposing party. When the contract to purchase was signed there was no mention of royalties to be payed for the name of shop. The Querent (in fact there are 4 partners)was contacted some time later by the opposing party, informing him that he now must pay royalties for the name or change the name. He does not want to change the name. The opposing party is known for being a bully and is quite a nasty character.

The chart is radical, Venus is cold and moist as is Asc sign Pisces. The Querent's ruler is Jupiter, ruler of Asc. Moon is cosignificator of the question, in the Ascendant (5* rule). The opposing party is Mercury ruler of 7th house. Court/Judge Jupiter ruler of 10th.
Both Querent Jupiter, and opposing party Mercury are peregrine and weak. Jupiter is also detrimented, though has more accidental dignity than Mercury posited in 4th but Jupiter is ruled by Mercury. This makes sense as the Querent is being bullied by the opposing party Mercury.
Moon indicating the action - Moon separates trine Saturn ruler 11th (Querents hopes, friends etc.) Moon then applies a very wide square Jupiter. Jupiter is Court/Judge as well as Querent. In the 4th (end of the matter).
I thought perhaps the two parties would settle out of court as there are receptions between Mercury and Jupiter, I also see there is a trine between these two but Mercury is separating from Jupiter so I do not think this is a possibility.
Lilly's method to judge this type of chart (CA p 375) tells us we take 1st, 7th, 10th 4th Querent, Opponent, Judge, End of Matter respectively. consider their strengths and whether in angles, cadent, succedent etc and the Planet that is strongest and best placed is the best man and most likely to carry the victory. In this case Jupiter, Querent is the strongest accidentally (in an angle). So Jupiter the Querent will be the winner in this case.
I am inclined to go with Lilly's method, does anyone else agree with this judgement?
Look forward to others views. Many thanks
Sue
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Geoffrey



Joined: 09 Jul 2012
Posts: 368
Location: Scottish Borders

Posted: Fri Sep 28, 2012 8:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Is this actually going to court at this moment in time? If not, then perhaps we do not need to consider the significator of the judge just yet.

Coley makes the comment ('Key to the Whole Art of Astrology' page 206) to look at the 2nd and 8th houses to see who has the deeper pockets.

Lilly gives the 2nd house to "a man's friends and assistants" in a suit of law ('Christian Astrology' page 51) and Lee Lehman makes the connection between 'friends and assistants' in the 17th century to your lawyer in a 20th century law suit. ('The Martial Art of Horary Astrology' page 37). Lawyers are expensive and the deepest pocket usually gets the best lawyer.

With this in mind, let us give Mars to the querents lawyer and Venus to the opponent's lawyer. Mars is definitely stronger here. We see the lawyers separating from a square, in the same way that the querent and his opponent from their trine, so there does not seem to be an agreement in sight. But note that there is a mutual reception by face between Mars and Venus. Perhaps the querent's lawyer proposes a deal which the opponent accepts because he does not want to spend too much money fighting this case...? (See Saturn is in the opponent's 2nd house, the radical 8th, and Mercury is peregrine in that house.)

Geoffrey
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arabianfundi



Joined: 19 Feb 2007
Posts: 19

Posted: Sat Sep 29, 2012 7:11 am    Post subject: Will we win the court case? Reply with quote

Hi Geoffrey

Thanks for taking the time to look at this chart. I agree with what you say about looking at the respective parties money houses with regards to who can get the best lawyer. In fact the opponenet has by far the deepest pockets so is likely to be able to get the best lawyer but this is not what is shown in the chart. As you say Mars (2nd) in dignity is stronger than Venus (8th) who is peregrine.

There is a court date, the two parties are appearing at the Pretoria High Court 4 October 2012. The Querent (Jupiter) is clearly worried (detrimented), he is already very indebted financially and can ill afford the expensive legal fees. But Jupiter (1st & 10th) signifies both Querent and Court/Judge) are one and the same, saying that the Judge will be with the Querent.

Look forward to your input.
Sue


I
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Geoffrey



Joined: 09 Jul 2012
Posts: 368
Location: Scottish Borders

Posted: Sat Sep 29, 2012 9:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Trial set for the 4th of October - that is not long.

Finding the judge in this chart is difficult. The almuten for the cusp of the 10th is also Jupiter, so no help there. Coley gives the Moon to the jury in a trial. (Having spent some time in prison himself, Coley certainly had personal experience of trial charts!) We could stretch this to mean that the Moon is, in effect, the decision of the court, whether given by a jury or a judge sitting alone, so the fact that the Moon is on the ascendant looks very promising.

I see that the Moon is conjunct Neptune, which could mean the court will not (initially) feel it has enough information. Too, the Moon applies by a difficult square to Jupiter next, but 12 degrees to perfection is rather a lot considering the trial date is only seven days after the chart date. With this in mind, it would be intriguing if the trial date is set back for some reason.

Geoffrey
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arabianfundi



Joined: 19 Feb 2007
Posts: 19

Posted: Sat Sep 29, 2012 10:20 am    Post subject: will we win the court case? Reply with quote

Hi Geoffrey

I also considered using Moon as Querent's significator, it is after all the consignificator in the question. Moon is ruled by Jupiter, the trail judge, Judge calls the shots. In South Africa we do not have jury, the judge gives the final decision in all trials. Moon as you say is applying a very wide square Jupiter but Moon does complete this aspect before the day of the trial. Moon is applying in sign of short ascension making this aspect a trine. But Moon is slow in motion so it does indicate that nothing will happen quickly or smoothly!

Court cases in South Africa are notorious for being delayed and postponed so this is a distict likelihood.

Thanks again for your input on this Geoffrey, will post the outcome.
Sue
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Clinton Soule



Joined: 14 Sep 2008
Posts: 471
Location: Reno, Nevada

Posted: Fri Oct 05, 2012 8:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

arabianfundi,

Many here have trouble posting charts. Try this from my post :

'Trouble posting Horoscopes'

Simple directions and possibly will get more responses!
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arabianfundi



Joined: 19 Feb 2007
Posts: 19

Posted: Tue Oct 09, 2012 7:16 am    Post subject: Re: Will we win the court case - Result Reply with quote

Hi Geoffrey, Clinton, everyone!

I have a result for this Horary. The day before the court date 3 October the Querent heard that the case had been postponed. Jupiter (Judge/Courts)at this time was about to station rx. Geoffrey you did say that Moon applies difficult square Jupiter (Querent/Judge) and this might signify a postponment.

Querent heard 4 October 2.30pm (Jupiter Sn Rx.) from his lawyer that the opposition had withdrawn his case. It shows in the chart that the lawyers L2 Querents lawyer Mars is strong in this chart, while opponents lawyer L8 Venus although has dignity by mutual reception is accidentally weak.

Lastly the fact that Jupiter in the 4th end of matter says it all. Jupiter stationing indicates a halt to the case. It will be interesting if the opponent will file a new case when Jupiter moves forward again to this stationary point on 25 April 2013.

Thanks again for your help with this chart
Cheers
Sue
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Clinton Soule



Joined: 14 Sep 2008
Posts: 471
Location: Reno, Nevada

Posted: Tue Oct 09, 2012 10:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If one goes to astro.com, click upon 'Free Horoscopes', then click upon 'Extended Chart Selection' on that web page, and uses the 'Web Default Style' of horoscopes, and keeps the 'Image Size' at 75%, Regio house system because Lilly did, and Do Not enlarge the horoscope, but Copy & Paste the web address of the horary chart to the Forum Post, an artist can Send, or Download the map to their screen, and it may make it easier for Forum members to work with. Do Not enlarge or change the data on Astro.com or the horoscope may dissapear I have found. When you are done with the horoscope just hit that 'X' icon that gets rid of the webpage and all is well! The horary chart in question that one may click upon and it magicly appears:

Note: You can't change the data or try to calculate another chart or the new chart will take the horoscope's place.

http://www.astro.com/cgi/chart.cgi?;lang=e;gm=a1;nho2=;btyp=2;mth=gw;sday=9;smon=10;syr=2012;hsy=5;zod=;orbp=;rs=2;add=18;node=-Yn;pfday=-YP%201;fix=1;ast=&nhor=1&cid=hjkfilebYB1gh-u1349819166

Arabianfundi, more seem to answer and help on this forum, on horarys when there is a horoscope already calculated and easily accessible.

The Querant being both Luna and Jupiter is in a bad way, squaring off.

While the lord of the trial, the quesited is Mars, lord or the Trial, and Mars according to LIlly, who allowed a 7 minute separation, is being squared by Venus separating from Mars by 6 minutes.

Further testimonys like Face, Term, etc. must be consulted but the squ to Mars says No they will not win.

However, Mars is in it's dignity and here comes swift moving Luna Moona sneaking up in Pisces and could steal the show as she is making a trine to Mars.

Better crack open CA and let's see what Lilly would say on this!

Clinton Garrett Soule

Wise men truly know how little they know

http://www.newsreview.com/reno/star-reader/content?oid=22904
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arabianfundi



Joined: 19 Feb 2007
Posts: 19

Posted: Thu Oct 11, 2012 10:02 pm    Post subject: Will we win the court case Reply with quote

Hi Clinton,

I am sorry I never thanked you for your post. I had already had a result and have not been on the forum for a few days so missed it. Thank you for all the trouble you have gone to with the instructions on chart posting. Really appreciated.

Cheers
Sue
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Clinton Soule



Joined: 14 Sep 2008
Posts: 471
Location: Reno, Nevada

Posted: Fri Oct 12, 2012 7:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sue,

Your query being about would you or yours win the case, if there is No Trial one truly can't win. In other words 'no trial' means no win.

And I think you mentioned the adversary could re-challenge the issue.

But I totally fail to see how Jupiter in the 4th and it's detriment shows you came out on top of things; could you elaborate for us?

But this query bothers me in that one would think we'd have something like a VOC Moon or strictures telling us it was a 'no show' or nothing for the querant to concern themself with, but those things aren't in this horary.

Clinton Garrett Soule
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johannes susato



Joined: 04 Jan 2009
Posts: 1319

Posted: Sat Oct 13, 2012 2:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Sue, Geoffrey, Clinton,

by hindsight it is interesting to see the Moon coming to the antiscion of Mercury - the Moon then in 1119 of Pisces, Mercury in 1841 of Libra - after 632. This is according the chart at 3/4 October about. Could not this conjunction by antiscion of the two significators of the parties without reception be the cause of the withdrawal of one party before the appearing at the High Court?

Lilly, CA, p. 372:
"If the lord of the ascendant or the MO be joyned to the lord
of the seventh, or be in 60 or 120 aspect with mutuall Recepti-
on, the parties will easily of themselves accord, and compose
all differencies without mediation of any, or with a little en-
treaty.
But if one receive the other, and he that is received, receive
not the other Significator, they shall agree without Suit of law,
but not without intermission of a third party or more; and
those that intercede, for the most part shall be his Friends or
Acquaintance that did receive the other Planet.
If they, viz. the lord of the seventh and ascendant are in a
90 aspect, or in 180, with mutuall Reception, or in a 60 or 120
without Reception, they will be reconciled, but first they will
have one little combate at law:
[...]"

Possibly the just separated trine of Jupiter and Mercury alone and for itself is signifying the end of the matter before its beginning.

Johannes
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johannes susato



Joined: 04 Jan 2009
Posts: 1319

Posted: Tue Oct 16, 2012 9:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

It is this quotation of Lilly (CA, p. 299) which I just found and which I should like to add to my above text:
"13 A Retrograde Planet, or one in his first station, Signficator in
the Question, denotes ill in the Question, discord and much contra-
diction."


This is why I would doubt that Jupiter's becoming stationary (alone or at all?) would signify that "that the opposition had withdrawn his case".

Possibly this station, lasting nearly 9 degrees up to his second station, indicates the situation of the querent - independently of his fear as to a lawsuit. But then Jupiter is direct again and the problems of the querent could come to an end.

Johannes
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Clinton Soule



Joined: 14 Sep 2008
Posts: 471
Location: Reno, Nevada

Posted: Fri Oct 26, 2012 1:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Exactly Johannes Susato,

Note Lilly admission of 'Shall I buy Master B's house..' that the 4th, the house of the matter is Rx; and he had problems with it!

And the 2012 USA Presidential election for the president is ill for me and most likely a very ugly election.

Clinton Garrett Soule
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