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William F. Lilly's Natal Horoscope

 
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Clinton Soule



Joined: 14 Sep 2008
Posts: 471
Location: Reno, Nevada

Posted: Thu Sep 20, 2012 1:37 am    Post subject: William F. Lilly's Natal Horoscope Reply with quote

Dear Forum,

Using Astro.com I can't get the exact co-ordinates as the shire or district is Not noted only Lilly's town as in England; so other than the Angles the house cusps are off somewhat from CA II on the ebook copy online.

If one doesn't change the data or enlarge the chart it tends to stay there providing no one calculates a chart off of the webb page below of Lilly's horoscope:

http://www.astro.com/cgi/chart.cgi?cid=w52fileEKErsv-u1366140152;lang=e;gm=a1;btyp=2;mth=gw;sday=16;smon=4;syr=2013;hsy=5;zod=;orbp=;rs=2;ls=1;add=18;node=-Yn;pfday=-YP%201;fix=1;ast=&nhor=1&nho2=1

I have met a few horary artists whom are of the firm conviction that Outers should Not be used in Transits, Progressions & Directions, or Natal astrology despite other astrologers pointing out the obvious effects of Outers in Transits to their natal horoscope. As far as horary I try to stay Traditional, but I'm Not going to be an ostrich with my head hid in the sand in other areas of astrology and I hope the Ultra-Trads won't ostrasize us for walking on limbs or frozen lakes iced over.

But I've wondered for some time Why Lilly was such a genius in astrology and what in his horoscope gave strong indications that he would be the utmost horary icon West of Constaninople to this day.

Having began my early astrology studies under the Rosicrucian Fellowship out of Oceanside, California, under the writtings of the course by Max Heindel whom wrote from I'm sure Flossy Mae's(Max's wife) influence as I understand from AFA Flossy was the actual astrologer. Max points out that conjunctions are given to natives as earned genius from previous incarnations.

Well I was kind of right as Lilly has Mercury Rx separating from Uranus by 5 degress and 46 minutes. Now many Modernes except this orb and justify it by the Moeity charts that Lilly utilized from Al Burini. Mercury is lord of Lilly's 3rd and 7th, which I understand as Lilly's astrological genius and ability to write his three volumes of CA and more, as well as his high acute intuition which was demostrated throughout his life.

And of course Anthrodite combusted by Sol shows both his delayed marriage and his eventual success with that over-cooked Venus of his finances and accumalation of propertys.

Does anyone have counter points or disagreements with the interpretations of the cjt.s or other inputs to Lilly's horoscope?

Clinton Garrett Soule

Wise men truly know how little they know

http://www.newsreview.com/reno/star-reader/content?oid=22904


Last edited by Clinton Soule on Tue Apr 16, 2013 8:00 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Morpheus



Joined: 21 Mar 2007
Posts: 740
Location: Rawalpindi/Islamabad (Pakistan)

Posted: Sat Nov 03, 2012 1:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Clinton,

Good observation.

Do you put some weightage to Grand Trines in earth signs which are present in Lily chart?


Quote:
And of course Anthrodite combusted by Sol shows both his delayed marriage and his eventual success with that over-cooked Venus of his finances and accumalation of propertys.


HIs first marriage was to a rich widow when he was most probably in 20s.
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Morpheus


"There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, than are dream of in your philosophy" Shakespeare

"All that matters on the chessboard is good moves" Bobby Fischer
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Clinton Soule



Joined: 14 Sep 2008
Posts: 471
Location: Reno, Nevada

Posted: Sat Nov 03, 2012 8:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

As we know his marriage house is ruled by Mercury, being Virgo. But Syed, I haven't studied much about his marriages, how did that go? Was it trying for Lilly and difficult for her as well?

Syed Tarig Javed said:

Quote:
HIs first marriage was to a rich widow when he was most probably in 20s.


Would love to hear about Lilly's marriages and personal life as Venus combust should have fulfilled a dificult time in romance and marriages regardless of his lord of his 7th's aspects and placement.

Clinton Garrett Soule

Wise men know how little they know
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johannes susato



Joined: 04 Jan 2009
Posts: 1340

Posted: Sat Nov 03, 2012 10:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hello Clinton,

Lilly married his mistress after his master's death (May 22, 1627) "upon the eighth day of September, 1627, at St. George's church in Southwark", and says of his matrimony: "during all the time of her live, which was until October, 1633, we lived very lovingly".

Johannes
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Morpheus



Joined: 21 Mar 2007
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Location: Rawalpindi/Islamabad (Pakistan)

Posted: Sat Nov 03, 2012 11:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Clinton,

Here is the name of the Book and the link. Smile

William Lilly's History of His Life and Times by William Lilly

http://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/15835
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Morpheus


"There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, than are dream of in your philosophy" Shakespeare

"All that matters on the chessboard is good moves" Bobby Fischer
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johannes susato



Joined: 04 Jan 2009
Posts: 1340

Posted: Sun Nov 04, 2012 1:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks, Tariq. I had lost that link.

The data I gave of Lill's marriage with and the death of his first wife you'll find under that link, page 14.

Johannes
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james_m



Joined: 05 Dec 2011
Posts: 1804
Location: vancouver island

Posted: Mon Nov 05, 2012 3:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

an interesting feature of lillys mercury which may get overlooked by some is the fact it is essentially stationary about to go direct.. most astrologers seem to operate in a narrow window of what is retro or direct with no real astro definitions for what defines stationary.. using a window of a few days - lilly's chart has a stationary mercury about to go direct.. his chart goes with my theory that any stationary planet becomes very highlighted..
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Clinton Soule



Joined: 14 Sep 2008
Posts: 471
Location: Reno, Nevada

Posted: Thu Nov 15, 2012 12:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

james_m said:

Quote:
an interesting feature of lillys mercury which may get overlooked by some is the fact it is essentially stationary about to go direct.. most astrologers seem to operate in a narrow window of what is retro or direct with no real astro definitions for what defines stationary.. using a window of a few days - lilly's chart has a stationary mercury about to go direct.. his chart goes with my theory that any stationary planet becomes very highlighted..


In my documented records of 'electional astrology' I have worked with, I have found any comunication, or documents presented under the Rx Mercury stays there, like it becomes 'set in stone'. Now my fellow artists must forgive my recollection as I do not have any documentation from an authority on this, yet I am aware it has been written about, so the Forum will have to forgive my slight of 'academic dishonesty' as like so many writters of astrology in the past I'm not citing my source on this.

I think this goes in stride with Lilly's monumental Taurean attributes as his teachings are accepted by most as if they were an 'iron foundation' and why as I understand after the 'fire of London in 1666' and confrontation with Parliament where Parliament said "If Lilly says it therefore it is so.."

Clinton Garrett Soule

Wise men know how little they know
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Morpheus



Joined: 21 Mar 2007
Posts: 740
Location: Rawalpindi/Islamabad (Pakistan)

Posted: Thu Nov 15, 2012 2:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Clinton Soule,

Quote:
In my documented records of 'electional astrology' I have worked with, I have found any comunication, or documents presented under the Rx Mercury stays there, like it becomes 'set in stone'.


Do you mean to say that whatever a person writes having Rx Mercury about to go direct, lives for ever and gets credit....

Lilly had period of fame in his life. Then he went into obscurity and has recently been revived. His following is immense. Can we say periods of extreme recognition followed by periods of complete obscurity. [/quote]
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Morpheus


"There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, than are dream of in your philosophy" Shakespeare

"All that matters on the chessboard is good moves" Bobby Fischer
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james_m



Joined: 05 Dec 2011
Posts: 1804
Location: vancouver island

Posted: Thu Nov 15, 2012 4:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wise men know how little they know

i like that.. it reminds me of a saying from the tao teh ching..

maybe you know it too?

'the farther you go, the less you know'.

maybe they are different astrologers interpretations of the same thing? LOL
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lihin



Joined: 14 Dec 2009
Posts: 470
Location: Mount Kailash

Posted: Thu Nov 22, 2012 7:32 am    Post subject: Problems with William Lilly's birth date and time Reply with quote

Good morning,

For easy reference here is some relevant data from another thread:

Quote:
"Martin Harvey in Nativitas I quotes Lilly's letter to his friend and patron, Elias Ashmole, (May 1, 1602 OS). Lilly's correspondence indicates that the time may have been rectified by him; he is content with the time as he refers to directions of the map.

(NN No.617 quotes Gadbury for 2:00 AM, same from P.C. "Sibly Celestial Science of Astrology" has April 30, 1602 OS, 2:08 AM; same in Gadbury's Collection of Nativities, 1661. Wangemann had 3:00 AM)"


The German AstroWiki states more difficulties, ex. gr. Julian or Gregorian calendar, calculation of hour after midday or after midnight (difference of a calendar day, 1 May instead of 30 April), sun clock time or local mean time.:

Quote:
"Lillys Geburtsdatum wird bei verschiedenen Quellen mit 30. April 1602, greg. 2:08 angegeben. Es handelt sich jedoch, vergleicht man seine eigenen Angaben, um ein julianisches Datum. Die Zeitangabe beruht auf den alten Ephemeriden, die auf Mittagsständen (Meridianstände) basierten. Eine Zeitangabe von 14:08 Post Meridian (P.M.) bedeutet also 14:08 Stunden nach Mittag, das ergibt 2:08 Uhr des Folgetages. Die Zeitdifferenz von drei Minuten zum rekonstruierten Horoskop beruht auf der Differenz von LAT (Sonnenuhrzeit) zu LMT (mittlerer Ortszeit). Dies deckt sich auch mit der bei Gadbury abgebildeten Horskopzeichnung (nebenstehend)."


Here is John Gadbury's chart of William Lilly referred to just above:



Best regards,

lihin
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Clinton Soule



Joined: 14 Sep 2008
Posts: 471
Location: Reno, Nevada

Posted: Sun Nov 25, 2012 9:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Geoffrey,

Under the present Mercury Rx I'm a little hesitant on how to answer this. But from reading Gadbury's horary book it strongly appears Gadbury had Lilly's book laid out in front of him while he nearly copied Lilly's CA; with the exception of a few deviations like money earned from gambling as a 5th house matter or romances/affairs as 5th rather than the 7th.

As I understand they were rivals and he could be that Gadbury *may" be trying to throw a curve ball by giving this birth time!

But I did say *may be* because even if rivals and Lilly may refer to Gadbury like one of the Modernes Lilly addresses in CA, there is little doubt Gadbury respected his knowledge.

Clinton Garrett Soule

Wise men truly know how little they know
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johannes susato



Joined: 04 Jan 2009
Posts: 1340

Posted: Mon Nov 26, 2012 2:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Clinton, to whom do you refer, Geoffrey not writing in this thread?

Johannes
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Clinton Soule



Joined: 14 Sep 2008
Posts: 471
Location: Reno, Nevada

Posted: Tue Nov 27, 2012 6:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thank Johannes.

Doesn't that sound so Merc Rx, I misread the name, it was supposed to be ***Lihin*** quote before my last one!

Geoffrey can ye forgive my ineptness. Snif...snif ....on my knees asking thine benevolent forgiveness...........


Thanks for the wake up call!

Clinton Garret Soule

Whom stumbled in the Merc Rx he warned others of <Grin>
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Clinton Soule



Joined: 14 Sep 2008
Posts: 471
Location: Reno, Nevada

Posted: Tue Apr 16, 2013 8:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lihin thanks for the chart I wonder if since the ephemeris in the 1600s were cruder than today's computerized ephemeris is that perhaps why John Gadbury's horoscope for Lilly is off on the asc. by a few degrees?

Also like one of our Moderators, astro brother Paul, I deviate in astrology in Natal work and use Outers, as they work great for me and explain things one just could Not see in 1600.

Note Lilly has the Sun(Sol) separating from Uranus by 9 degrees 58 minutes, that is just under 10 degrees as in Albiruni's tables found on Deb's great websight at:

http://www.skyscript.co.uk/aspects.html

That explains a lot to me of Lilly's genius as Max Heindel, a Moderne, leader and writer of the Rosicrucian Fellowship, said 'conjunctions worked as like foci giving genius that was earned in previous lifetimes'.

http://www.rosicrucian.com/

With Uranus oppositioning Lilly's 8th cusp it surely shows the drive behind Lilly and why astrology was such a challenge to him.

Lihin, even if Lilly had problems with John Gadbury, as our dear brother Geoffrey stated in that '..Lilly thought of Gadbury latter as a Cad..'. I just wonder if we could rectify Lilly's map what his actual house cusps would be? But knowing Lilly he probly did this for us already and that is his actual horoscope.

Clinton Garrett Soule

Wise men truly know how little they know
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