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16 by Clinton Soule
Geoffrey stated:
If, having noted the warning, you choose to press on regardless with a delineation, that is your prerogative. But to accuse me of effectively chickening out because I choose not to do likewise is frankly absurd.

I should note too that while Lilly merely stated that "some say" a via combusta Moon is a caution against judgement, Lilly's chosen successor Henry Coley went further and effectively said that a chart was not fit to be judged if the Moon was via combusta.
Geoffrey, in No way was I stating that you were chickening out, yet many artists including the mentor that created the fire under me in horary will Not go further in a horary if it violates one of the 'strictures of judgment' that dedicated Barbarra Watters has created.

If we look at Lilly and the horoscopes he included with Moons in Via Combusta in CA we may get another persective.

But horary is like medicine in that in the medical field they say 'they are practicing medicine' in that the medical field changes perspective and oppinions often when a physician icon writes a paper stating his 'new improved studies and hypothesis..', then the medical students seem to flock to his oppinion for a while.
While Barbara Watters is often accused of a disservice to horary astrology by converting a warning that judgement may be difficult into a "stricture against judgement", it should be noted that this was based on her own personal experience of seeing what happened when she ignored the warning. It was not just a slip of the pen on her part, but the result of considerable evidence in her own practice, which we should not discount lightly.
Correct, when in a lifetime we as horary artists seem to find a certain thing as valid it statistically may Not be proven in our short term using our gathered data applied as valid statistical facts. It may take thousands if Not more studys of the same type of sampling to prove or disprove a point.

As we study Lilly and utilize computer arrived ephemeris data and calculations we see errors in his work and things he thought were factual of which he based his verdict upon were not actually there unless our current computer calculations have a few flaws.

And I think the Via Combusta Moon is valid here in the respect that Silverleaf has admitted to her lack of knowledge upon horary and the hardship that the Moon cjt. Saturn suggests upon this matter for her. But would Lilly unlike Henry Coley have pressed on with giving a verdict upon this horary?

Lilly no doubt has given us fine example horoscopes to work with. But those horarys within CA are Not all the horarys he attemped or solved. And to get an accurate insight on Lilly and the Via Combusta Moon we possibly need to question all charts in CA and other documents that Lilly has written.

Good points Geoffrey!

Clinton Garrett Soule

Wise men truly know how little they know

17 by Clinton Soule
johannes susato asked:


The Trial is the 9th!

see Lilly in CA pp. 369 and 372

"Help needed, Clinton Soule, I cannot verify your quotation: No 9th house in these pages . . . "

No, it's not in these pages but there is more on Lilly's methods than CA.

Dorothy Kovach, moderator and owner of Angelicus Merlin Discussion Forum dedicated to Lilly, horary, and the Ancients, recently pointed out along with a fellow artist, Gorizza, in a horary about a court case that the 9th is the Trial.

The adversary, or open enemy is of course the 7th, and the judge is the 10th; but it's the 9th that represents the trial.
[AM] Re: Will the case go to trial?
Thu Jun 21, 2012 6:15 pm

Hi Clinton,

the Venus is lord of the matter, and Venus will Not perfect it's applying cjt
by Rx motion as it will go diect a few degrees before it actually perfects.

I often wonder if you actually read my posts before you reply to them. Mercury is L1. We are looking whether we can connect L1 Mercury to L9 Venus. Not Jupiter to Venus. Mercury to Venus. I realize that Venus will turn direct before it conjuncts Jupiter, but that's irrelevant. I also don't want to look at what every planet is doing to every other planet. This is a horary, not a life story.
Keep it simple.

Again: Mercury's antiscion is at 8*30'Gemini, Venus is at 8*41 Gemini, moving Rx towards a conjunction with Mercury, which will perfect within 11'. Eleven
minutes!

The End.

Gorizza

Besides, even though this particular horary is Not about jail nor
incarceration, look at Luna, she has just left the sign gemini at 0can53 and is in combust, a New Moon, Lunation, and the querant is in a terrible way, they are over-done and too roasted in the bar-b-que of life? worried about jail/12th.
However, now I hope I'm Not being heredical here but even though this is Not the matter, Luna has separated, gone into another sign from the lord of Incarceration, Jail, Imprisonment, self-undoing; so it would look to me the worst part is over at least No imprisonment despite the last horary connected to this says Jail is coming, and jail and Prison in the USA are different institutions yet under the same house.

#2 Now if as I understand Lilly in 7th house matters that the trial is the
matter in the 7th, the Lord Jupiter of the 7th is Not going to cjt and perfect
with Anthrodite, as Venus will eventually go direct, so it May be saying they almost come together but something in the investigation is not putting the puzzle together. And just looking at the map, Jupiter will Not as I had originally said 'as Jupiter applies to Saturn by around 20 degrees', Saturn actually goes into Scorpio before Jupiter has a chance to catch up and perfect the complete Jupiter Saturn Trine, though none of this is in Al Biruni's orbs or moietys that Lilly used in a somewhat looser fashion than Al Buruni.

Again look at that Combust Moon and she just left the? planet/Sun that rules secret enemys in this query, and the querant has them in high places like judges and the administrators of law in his past.

Clinton Garrett Soule

Wise men know how little they know


________________________________
From: Gorizza <gorizza>
To: angelicusmerlin@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thursday, June 21, 2012 3:16 PM
Subject: [AM] Re: Will the case go to trial?

Hi Clinton,

I had no idea that a trial is the 7th house. I know that the querent's
opponent in the trial is L7, but not the trial itself.
So, I'll do this my way, and put the trial in the 9th. So, the trial is Venus,
the querent is Mercury/Moon. Again, he is signified by a 'good' Moon... he
really doesn't deserve this...
Can we connect Mercury to Venus? Yes, we can. Mercury's antiscion is at 8*30' Gemini (in the 9th!), and Venus is at 8*41' Gemini, retrograding towards Mercury. The answer is yes.
Gorizza
............

Forum membership,

As most of you know there are and can be electional charts within an
electional Chart.

Like when one sets up an electional for a company then they have other
electional events in different business deals like Howard Hughes used to do in
his airplane hangers at weird hours of the night as his astrologer advised.

And we have a difficult query that we have been trying to solve, "Will I go
to Jail?" So the querant and I have been talking and he asked this query:

Question: Will I go to trial on this case?

Time: 12:18 am 1218 hours

Date: 6 / 19 / 2012

Place: Reno, Nevada, USA 119 W 49 39 N 32

Clinton Garrett Soule
Clinton Garrett Soule

Wise men truly know how little they know

http://www.newsreview.com/reno/star-rea ... ?oid=22904
Last edited by Clinton Soule on Wed Oct 10, 2012 1:59 am, edited 3 times in total.

18 by johannes susato
Clinton Soule wrote:johannes susato asked:


The Trial is the 9th!

see Lilly in CA pp. 369 and 372

"Help needed, Clinton Soule, I cannot verify your quotation: No 9th house in these pages . . . "

No, it's not in these pages but there is more on Lilly's methods than CA.
With your permission and for clarification, Clinton:
You said: "The Trial is the 9th! see Lilly in CA pp. 369 and 372 "

I asked: "Help needed, Clinton Soule, I cannot verify your quotation: No 9th house in these pages . . . "

Your answer: "No, it's not in these pages but there is more on Lilly's methods than CA."

My response:
But as we do not play hide and seek it would be fair, not go give quotes which are no quotes because there is no sentence or thought wich is reputedly there to be read but is not!
Not to run the risk to mistake one's own thoughts for those of Lilly for example it should be quoted from the author what is the basis of one's own thoughts with the author. What "is more on Lilly's methods than CA" should be quotable or derivable from Lilly-quotations in my opinion.

To cite others is not very helpful in our question because they do not give any explanation but claim only, and on top of that wrongly - if at all they ground on Lilly!?

When they say:
"The adversary, or open enemy is of course the 7th, and the judge is the 10th; but it's the 9th that represents the trial." And:
"So, I'll do this my way, and put the trial in the 9th."

then I cannot find this to be consistent with Lilly, who says in CA, p. 54:
"The seventh House.
It giveth judgement of Marriage, and describes the person
inquired after, whether it be Man or Woman, all manner of
Love questions, our publique enemies; the Defendant in a Law-
suit, in Warre the opposing party; all Quarrels, Duels, Law-
suits; in Astrology the Artist himselfe; [...]"

Johannes

19 by Clinton Soule
Johannes, it was Not Dorothy or Gorizza that stated this but myself:

Clinton said:

"The adversary, or open enemy is of course the 7th, and the judge is the 10th; but it's the 9th that represents the trial." And:

Gorizza stated this as a student of Frawley:

"So, I'll do this my way, and put the trial in the 9th."

And I agree with you that it should come from Lilly Or other prior writters or Ancients.

But there are other writtings that I haven't read that Lilly wrote such as Lilly talked about Kepler's minor aspects in the early part of CA; one would think he was advocating the minor aspects from the way he worded this. But thankfully others who have read other documents whom are on this forum corrected me as Lilly wrote contrary to Kepler's hypothesis on that issue.

Gorizza at this point in time is a Frawley advocate and like most who haven't diligently studied a particular author they miss things the writter was implying. You know we miss concepts even if we study earnestly various writters as Lilly misunderstood Ptolemy's Table of Essential Dignitys.

Just like as a Christian astrologer, I have often questioned Lilly's perception of a 9th house matter about '...are dreams valid..'. Well in doing a little research as Lilly did understand Latin, but the King James Version of the Bible didn't trully become well read or popular til around Lilly's late years, after he wrote CA. Lilly was so educated you'd think he would have known this but his passion studying astrology literature rather than documents upon Christianity as he was not of the clergy.

I'm sure you will agree that Lilly's Pisces rising does confuse a student from time to time. Imagine being alone, without a Forum as we have, and having no one to consult with about what Lilly actually meant, like one of the first woman horary students who was in the time of the 'Salem Witch Trials' in the American colonys, I doubt she accurately understood all Lilly was teaching.

Just like there are those contemporary students who don't quite understand Lilly being a Taurus Sun, a sign that typically is not hypocritical, despite his flexible Pisces Asc., a devout Jupiter child, that when he wrote CA, and called it Christian, wouldn't it be fraudulent for Lilly to decieve? I mean Lilly was really down on the Charlatans of his time, I doubt he was just 'faking' when he talks about his relationship to God or Christ in the early part of CA.

Back to your point, I'm not at this time armed with the documentation of where Lilly says the 9th is the Trial, for as you point out, it would appear that from what Lilly says it may be the 7th.

But something that eluded Gorizza on this particular horary on a trial was she thought that one house only, the matter, had the total verdict. Lilly in the 4th house matter '...Master B's House..' not only examined the 4th but Lilly mentions the 7th and 11th in that horary. In other words what Gorizza missed was even if the 9th is the trial, there truly can't be a trial without an adversary; and the lord of the 7th was unaspected meaning 'no action'!

Clinton Garrett Soule

Wise men know how little they know [/quote]

22 by Clinton Soule
Sorry to have quoted you wrongly, Clinton!
Obviously it it has been too difficult for me to disentangle all you cited.

Johannes
Don't worry, ...and You were right. In reading Lilly in CA one would think that the 7th was the trial.

But Lilly is sometimes very confusing and like most astrology writters he fails to cite where he got his ideas and commits 'academic dishonesty' just as many contemporary authors have fallen into that trap.

Sorry a got off on tangents...and I wish more students of astrology would cite accurately where they got their data; otherwise it makes them look like they invented the concepts they are addressing.

Silverleaf this would be a great time to use that formulae for posting charts I gave via this thread. Unless we can get Geoffrey to share how he copies from astro.com so helpful to the Forum.


Clinton Garrett Soule

23 by johannes susato
Clinton Soule wrote:Gorizza stated this as a student of Frawley:

"So, I'll do this my way, and put the trial in the 9th."
[...]
And I agree with you that it should come from Lilly Or other prior writters or Ancients.
[...]
Gorizza at this point in time is a Frawley advocate
With the risk to cite you wrongly again, Clinton:
Whatever Gorizza and you do in her saying and your commenting: This is not according Frawley! See 'The Horary Textbook', p. 210:
" 'But the 9th is the house of law.' No: the 9th house covers law only as an abstract subject - higher learning. It has nothing to do with law in action, as in a court case."

My point is simply, that quotations should be consistent with those contents which are quoted.

Johannes
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