skyscript.co.uk
   

home articles forum events
glossary horary quiz consultations links more

Read this before using the forum
Register
FAQ
Search
View memberlist
View/edit your user profile
Log in to check your private messages
Log in
Recent additions:
Lilly's Considerations
compiled by D. Houlding
Book II of Carmen Astrologicum by Dorotheus
translated by David Pingree
Compiled by Deborah Houlding
The Babylonian Astrolabe: the Calendar of Creation, by Rumen K. Kolev
Reviewed by Gill Zukovskis

Skyscript Astrology Forum

Financial Significators in the Natal Chart
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5
 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Forum Index -> Traditional (& Ancient) Techniques
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
Tzadde



Joined: 07 Apr 2011
Posts: 137

Posted: Sat Sep 29, 2012 2:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

favro wrote:
I can understand the "dark chart" delineation in Berlusconi's case, but I am at loss to find any parallel with Brian Souter's life which has also both luminaries below the horizon. Could either Tzadde or Mark enlighten us?

favro

In dark charts, I can't say whether the native is successful. In Souter's case, the Fortune is in 12th WS, which is not a good place for success at all. Looking from the Spirit perspective, I couldn't say whether Jupiter in detriment would be helpful or not. I would have guessed this chart is just... average.
_________________
Amor ordinem nescit.
Love does not know order.
- Saint Jerome -
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Ile



Joined: 10 Oct 2010
Posts: 129

Posted: Sat Sep 29, 2012 2:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tom, Astro databank gives AA rating for Donald's chart with different hour of birth and hence an ascendant in later degrees of Leo:
http://www.astro.com/astro-databank/Trump,_Donald

Where from are Donald's birth details which you provided?
_________________
My personal blog:
http://beyondtheheaven.wordpress.com/
-------
"Iunge testimonia & iudica ex superabundanti" ~ Cardano
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Tzadde



Joined: 07 Apr 2011
Posts: 137

Posted: Sat Sep 29, 2012 2:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Right from the link you have given, in the "Source Notes" section:

Quote:
Previously this entry was rated "A" (from memory) and had a birth time of 9:51 AM with the following source notes: LMR quotes a private source who obtained the data from his mother, confirmed by another astrologer who said, "He laughed, then called his mom."

_________________
Amor ordinem nescit.
Love does not know order.
- Saint Jerome -
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Ile



Joined: 10 Oct 2010
Posts: 129

Posted: Sat Sep 29, 2012 4:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I found the chart which Mark provided (of Brian Souter) quite interesting for exercising the techniques of the ancients for delineating the fortunes.


The Lot which is not visible in total is SUBSTANCE at 21 Scorpio.

Like Mark, I found that Mars in hayz to be generous for the native in the case of acquisitions. Why?
Because it disposes Saturn as a ruler of Fortune in 11th from Fortune. And not only discposing it, but has what to push onto that Saturn, Mars is in exaltation and in the sect of favor, in good house by division, and oriented toward doing favors for the native even though malefic by nature (Morin would argue that even in such cases, Mars would never stop to do some harm or imperfect good).

Mars on its throne in the same zoidia with Fortune, pushes its own exalted and elevated power to Saturn in 10th zoidia, or 11th from Fortune.
This is very good disposed Saturn.
But Saturn has other problem, it is retrograde.
This reminds me of an example which Valens gives in his Anthology, analysing a chart of a man with Jupiter in the acquisitive place, retrograde in Capricorn. This was a man who gained considerable amount of fortunes but later on has lost it. Valens says that this was so because this Jupiter was retrograde and in fall, hence the native's fortunes were transitory or didn't last.

Brian Souter is still alive so we can not examine his life in total, but what happened till this moment. As I understood, he was not so rich in his younger days but become rich through the redundancy money of his father somewhere in his late 20's. Am I right?

Mars has another interesting boost, and this is his position as a ruler of the Lot of Exaltation in the 10th from Exaltation.
So, we can see here Mars who is with the Fortune and ruler of the Exaltation in the 10th from Exaltation, disposing the ruler of Fortune in 10 natal sign.
Saturn is also ruler of the nativity, and its bad shape in our first glance, is not so bad when we examine the help which this Saturn receives from Mars.

Furthermore, look how the light of the sect is besieged by the two benefics. Some would use this Jupiter as a spear-bearer of the Moon, even though it is a day planet. And as Mark noted, this Juptier is oriented toward the native's career (ruling MC), and native's actions and intelect (ruler of Spirit in Pivot from Spirit).
Another quite interesting thing about this Jupiter is its conjunction with the Lot of Brothers (some astrologers called it "Lot of Siblings") and Brian made his success with his sister.
Jupiter is also bound ruler of the Ascendant and Almuten of Angles, bearing a great deal of the potency of the chart.

Valens on the combination of two stars in one zoidia:
Quote:
Jupiter and the moon are good, acquisitive: they cause men to be masters of adornments and slaves, and they bestow distinguished offices and ranks. They cause men to benefit from women and distinguished
individuals, to be treated well by family and children, and to be thought worthy of gifts and honors. They make treasurers, men who lend much, who are trusted, and who find treasures and become wealthy.
(Vettius Valens - Anthologies, Book I, Riley trans., p.17-1Cool


Brian did benefited WITH woman if not from woman Smile

So, I think that the nativity is helped by Mars and Jupiter respectively.
Venus as ruler of the 3rd division and in 3rd division, is speaking something about his sister. The whole beneficial configuration of Moon, Venus and Jupiter, Jupiter being ruler of Spirit, MC and bound ruler of ASC, ruler of second, conjuncting the Lot of Sibling, is speaking about the beneficent communion with a woman, in this case his sister.
Mars is helping Saturn for the native's acquisitions, pushing its own exalted power onto Saturn as native's ruler.

These are some considerations, I'm sure the chart has more to say.

Best,
Ile

P.S. Thanks for the information Tzadde Thumbs up
_________________
My personal blog:
http://beyondtheheaven.wordpress.com/
-------
"Iunge testimonia & iudica ex superabundanti" ~ Cardano
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Mark
Moderator


Joined: 30 Sep 2005
Posts: 4176
Location: Edinburgh, Scotland

Posted: Sat Sep 29, 2012 7:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dracon wrote:
Quote:
It think that Jupiter is Oikodespotes, sunoikodespotes and Kurios for this chart but I'm not certain. More about this, maybe next time.


What exactly does the term sunoikodespotes refer to?

Thanks

Mark
_________________
''Man is troubled not by events, but by the meaning he gives them"

Epictetus
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Marius Cojoc



Joined: 20 Jun 2011
Posts: 40
Location: Tîrgu Mures, Ro

Posted: Sun Sep 30, 2012 9:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

msg deleted

Last edited by Marius Cojoc on Sat May 03, 2014 2:02 am; edited 1 time in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Mark
Moderator


Joined: 30 Sep 2005
Posts: 4176
Location: Edinburgh, Scotland

Posted: Sun Sep 30, 2012 4:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hello Dracon,

I have replied to you but pasted your post on to the thread Hellenistic Astrology 2: Primary Chart Rulers. The theoretical nature of this discussion seems more suitable there.

http://skyscript.co.uk/forums/viewtopic.php?t=3334&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=30

Mark
_________________
''Man is troubled not by events, but by the meaning he gives them"

Epictetus
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Ile



Joined: 10 Oct 2010
Posts: 129

Posted: Sun Oct 14, 2012 4:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Reading my previous posts I can see that I was more concentrated on delienating the general power of the nativity (which is for sure related with the substance of the nativity in many ways) and not onto the financial significator which is a particular subject on this thread.

In this post I want to concentrate my self right onto answering the original question posted in the beginning of the thread:
Quote:
If I am examining a natal chart and I want to see how rich the person is, or will likely become, what do I look at--how do I determine this ACCURATELY?


I must admit that I found difficult following some strict rules for choosing a financial significator of the style "if this one is afflicted look at the other and etc.". I don't say this approach is wrong, it just don't fit to me.

I will post a chart of a very rich nativity. He is not famous, nor eminent in any field, but become rich through a friend from Egypt who has a father working with petroleum in times when the Petroleum was problematic to import in my country.



Here is my approach.
I would first look at the 2nd house cusp, because this is a subject we are investigating: native's substance.

I like Schoener's advise for approaching a chart:
Quote:
Arabs, first consider the cusp of the celestial house, then the lord of the
house,and last the significator of such a house; such as for the second house of the geniture, when the cusp of the second house is 6 degrees of Taurus,which,if it is found safe from the infortunes and their aspects, its ruler Venus is safe, and the cosignificator of this house, Jupiter, is safe from the infortunes and their rays, (these indications) say that this native is very fortunate in the significations of the second house. Then they consider the aphorisms of the original authors, and put together from these the significations of those houses, etc. For if the greater part of these, or all of them, are safe, they pronounce that the native will generally become fortunate in the matters signified by that house. If however, the greater part or all of them are unfortunate or are impeded, it will be to the contrary.
(Johannes Schoener - On The Judgment of Nativities, Hand trans., p.46-47)


Schoener would look first to the house cusp if it is somehow impeded by a bad ray or conjunction of a malefic in poor condition.
According to the Alkabitius' division system I use, the cusp of second house falls in 9 Capricorn, and there is no close aspect by the two malefic planets, but the Part of Fortune (the first significator for native's substamce on the Bonatti's list) is conjuncting the house cusp in 2 degrees.
The ruler of the house is Saturn who is not in good shape: retrograde, in fall and contrary to the sect in favor. But Saturn is not a planet which holds the most of the testimonies in Capricorn, this is Mars, having rulership of exaltation and triplicity. Mars is not glorious too, he is in detriment in 10th but in the sect of favor! He is in separating opposition with Saturn which is better then being in applying opposition.
Mars is also received by Venus in 2nd division, and she is in her own term which is good because she has what to push to Mars, she is in her on Chariot (according to Antiochus, planets in domicile, exaltation or their own term are in their chariots). They are both in the sect of favor!

But Saturn is turning direct 5 days after the birth which is good.
Abu Ma'shar says:
Quote:
And the chang­ing of the plan­ets must be under­stood, which has five parts: the first, if [a planet] were in the sec­ond or first sta­tion. The sec­ond, while it is being hid­den from the Sun or goes out from being hid­den […] (Abu Ma’shar, The Abbre­vi­a­tion of the Intro­duc­tion to Astrol­ogy, Book IV, 34–36, Dykes trans.)


Sahl on the second station (when planet turns direct):
Quote:
And every planet which is a sig­ni­fi­ca­tor and wished to go direct (that is, if it were in its sec­ond sta­tion) sig­ni­fies the renewal of the actions of mat­ters, and their action and strength or for­ward move­ment.
Sahl Bin Bishr, The Fifty Judg­ments, #48, Dykes trans.


It is true that Saturn is in poor zodiacal shape and contrary to the sect in favor, but it is in a good house (5th = Good Fortune), and intensified by the stationing direct in seven days after the birth.
Now Abu Ma'shar in his Libri Mysterium is telling us that not all humiliations of the planets are equally bad.
He says that Saturn is not hurt in Aries as Mars is hurt in Cancer, because Saturn has the dryness in accordance with the dryness of Aries, while Mars is totally contrary to the nature of Cancer (wet and cold).

It is also true that this Venus will firstly apply to this Saturn then to Mars, and this will be in the place of Venus' detriment which is also an affliction for Venus, but it is interesting to note another thing Abu Ma'shar saying in Libri Mysterium:

Quote:
Saturn, for example, when it comes down in latitude it becomes cold and damp and therefore it becomes consonant with the Moon and with Venus and this is why it does not offend and does not harm them
(Bezza/Dudziak translation)


So, I think that this Venus in 2nd will not be afflicted, or not afflicted badly not to produce good results.
I'm sticking with Venus because she is also a ruler of the twelfth part of the Fortune, and this is important according to Hiphaestio.

But the most interesting thing is to observe the Part of Substance being in 25 Leo in exact conjunction with the Part of Eros. Part of Eros is related to the friendship (Paulus), Hephaistio used it in Sinastry, and having the ruler Sun in exact trigon relationship to the Lots from the first is powerful testimony of the substance coming to the native (Sun in 1st in fiery triplicity) from another country (9th house), from a friend (Eros).

It is worth noting also that Venus is a spear-bearer of the light of the sect (Moon) and it is in her own chariot, ruling 11th (again substance through Friend).
Mars the other planet in sect and almuten of second, is a counter-doryphory of the Sun. Jupiter as a natural significator of the substance (of which Schoener refers as cosignificator) is also in doryphory of this Sun ruling the Substance and Eros in 9th.

Why are the spear-bearers important in our discussion?
Because they have relationship with the lights and both planets are related to the native's finances (Venus and Mars), both being in the sect of favor. The lights are powerful, the Sun is the "intellectual light, the all-seeing Sun" (Valens) and Moon the minister of the earh (as Schmidt put it). So the relationship of planets with them, especially with the light of the sect is important.

It is worth noticing also that Mars and Venus are the first two triplicity rulers of the light of the sect (Moon in Scorpio), and they are both succedent by division, both in the sect of favor, telling the story of a friend (Mars in 11th ruled by Venus) helping in native's finance matters (Mars rules the second, Venus ruler of 11th in 2nd).

I think that all these indications led to the good financial outcome of this native's life. But if I must choose one as in the list of Bonatti, I will choose the Part of Substance, just because it has particle trigon from its ruler in the 1st and they are both non impeded.
I'm not sure, but I think that the lucky strike of Fate, felt upon him when the annual profections came to the ascending sign where the Sun (ruler of Substance) is.

Well, I planed to add some aphorisms but it is too late in my country and I'm going to sleep. I hope I will find time tomorrow to continue with the example in a more systematic way. Smile

----------
Edit:
OK. so let's start more systematically.
We start with the second house cusp. It is not impeded but let's see the rulers.
I will probably disagree with myself (the post above), but I thought a lot these days about this chart and I think that the ruler and the natural significator of this house are not able to testify about the great fortune which this native had in his life related to substance.
I will explain why I think this to be so.

Saturn as ruler of second is in its own slavery (fall), it is retrograde and contrary to the sect. Well, contrary to the sect thing will not show corruption per se, but the planet will act with less power (sect describes 'how much') in trying to fulfill its own agenda. Saturn also has one more 'misfortune', by being in 12 degrees of the Node, which both Abu Ma'shar and Bonatti in his 6th consideration, point out as a "misfortune of the planet".
So we can see how this Saturn has several of the afflictions listed in the old authors, so I think that the source of his fortune we need to seek elsewhere.

If we look at the natural significator of wealth - Jupiter, and try to investigate its position we will see that he is also afflicted by being in conjunction with the node and being in a bound of a malefic planet (according to Abu Ma'shar's list for misfortunes of the planets).
Jupiter is also contrary to the sect in favor, and being elevated, it will not be unnoticed, but will do less then if it would have been here by day.
Firmicus clearly points out this in his book.

We are left with Venus as a planet inside the 2-nd house division.
She is in her own chariot (bound) which is good.
But she is separating from Jupiter and applying toward Saturn in Aries.
Now, Bonatti in his 6th consideration is telling us that it is a misfortune for a planet to be joined to a planet in her own descension. Furthermore, this is a place of Venus' detriment.
So, we can see that according to the medieval tradition, the things are not so perfect.

I will try to investigate the matter through Valens' approach.

His second book of Anthology is dedicated to delienation of the basis of the nativities. The word he uses here is "hupostasis", which means a "foundation" or "Substance", "that which stands behind".
This is the Base with which the native come into this world. What follows in the book is Valens delineating the basic "happiness" or the potential for prosperity of the native.

Now, this basis is really important investigation, because you can't be prosperous and be poor in substance.
So, instead of investigating the matter through the second house cusp, we will try to investigate it through what Valens advises us.
He also mentions that if the first method given (investigating the Sun and its triplicity lords) is not showing prosperity, we should look at the Lot of Fortune because sometimes this will give pointers for prosperity.
We can see that the things are not so easy and that one need to take many things into consideration to give final judgment.

So the first method Valens offers is to look at the Light, its position and triplicity lords and their positions.
We can see here that Moon is in place non-conducive to business (12th) in her fall, not so happy place.
But, according to Valens, if the trigon (triplicity) lords are in good places this can show a nativity with poor beginnings in life (because of the bad position of the Light) but with good developments later in years. He gives couple of examples of such nativities.
First trigon lord is Mars who is in 10th from Fortune and 11th from Ascendant! This is good.
Second triplicity lord is Venus in third from the ascendant or second from Fortune. This is not so prosperous but read the p.30 in Riley's translation where Valens says that if Venus - the Goddess, rules the third - House of the Goddess, the native will be reach and liked by women.
Here we have Venus in her own chariot (bound), not ruling the 3rd, but being in the third, ruler of the Daemon in Libra, we can assume that it is not such a bad place.
OK, we are assuming here, but lets continue.

Here Valens uses only the 2 trigon lords, but later in the book uses 3.
If we use the third, this would be the Moon itself.
It is true that the Moon is in 12th from the ascendant, but it is in the 11th - Place of Acquisitions, from the Lot of Fortune.

I think that the greatest fortune in this nativity is shown by the following factors:
Mars as exalted ruler of the Fortune in the 10th from the Fortune alongside Jupiter.
The Exaltation of the Moon is in Gemini and the ruler Mercury is with the Lot of Fortune!

Daimon is in the 10 from Fortune with Mars and Jupiter.
Valens tells us of the combination of Mars and Jupiter in one sign:
Quote:
"Jupiter and Mars make glorious and showy characters, friends of the great or of kings, distinguished governors and those considered worthy of honor and status".


How true this can be knowing that this is the 10th from Fortune!

So I think that Valens' approach gives more testimony of the prosperity of this native then the medieval one. Even though, the thing with the Lot of Substance I said above is not to be neglected too.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Forum Index -> Traditional (& Ancient) Techniques All times are GMT
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5
Page 5 of 5

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
. Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group

       
Contact Deborah Houlding  | terms and conditions  
All rights on all text and images reserved. Reproduction by any means is not permitted without the express
agreement of Deborah Houlding or in the case of articles by guest astrologers, the copyright owner indictated