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Financial Significators in the Natal Chart
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Mark
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Posted: Mon Sep 17, 2012 1:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tzadde wrote:
Quote:
None of the Luminaries is above the horizon, which makes a "dark" chart, that is a chart without Light (either of night or of day). Charts like this makes things unclear when we want to look for the native's life and various circumstances, like his financial situation. This example clearly shows that sometimes we have to use the Lot of Spirit instead one of Fortune, just because "dark" charts tangle matters. There are other conditions that may change the Lots, of course.


Very nice observation about the 'dark' chart. I hadn't thought of that but it makes perfect sense and seems to fit the native well. Reminds me of horary lost property aphorism that if both luminaries are below the horizon the recovery of the item is unlikely.

We also have the ASC ruler in the 2nd house under the beams of the Sun. This also indicates hiddeness or secrecy in regards financial dealings. This interpretation is stronger due to the fact that the Sun is Lord 12 here.

Tzadde wrote:
Quote:
I remember someone (Mark?) wrote in this forum that when Sun is in 12th, we should to look for the Moon, and that is remarkable, because I always had the strong feeling that 12th is a nocturnal House, even though is Saturn's joy. I don't have a reason for that, I just look for the Moon any time I see Sun in 12th and if the Sun is also in a nocturnal Sign, it is more so the case to look at the Lot of Spirit as if is of Fortune. Hope I make sense, lol.


It wasn't really my idea it was the approach adopted by many hellenistic astrologers in natal analysis. They looked at the sect light but if it was in a cadent house (whole sign) they went to the other luminary as the 'predominator'. If both luminaries were cadent they went to the ASC and its ruler as predominator. From this predominator they looked at its dispositors ( domicile and bound). The use of this dispositor of the sect light (Domicile Master) was combined with the technique of calculation of the Master of the nativity (Kurios) to work out the destiny of the person. Of course I am generalising here. As with today astrologers disagreed on many points of delineation.

Moreover, Ptolemy, as was so often the case, differed from most of his predecessors and contemporaries and only used the predominator technique for calculation of the length of life (hyleg) not in natal delineation. This had a major impact on medieval astrology which dropped the use of the sect light predominator in natal analysis.

I have discussed this with a very knowledgeable forum member here who tweaks the above approach a little by still considering the luminaries as predominator in the cadent houses they joy in i.e. the Moon in the 3rd and the Sun in the 9th.

In this chart the Moon is angular in the WS 7th house so I would not dismiss it in favour of the Sun even though it is below the horizon.

Mark
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StellarTiggy



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Posted: Mon Sep 17, 2012 8:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If Spirit is in Pisces then he's got his sect light (Moon) and 10th from Fortune (Saturn) conjunct Spirit in an angle (the 7th). Also, both are disposed by Jupiter which is in dignity in the 10th from Spirit. Both of these placements indicate fame and fame from status. I don't think we need to look at the 12th here. One of the placements that jumped out at me is the Sun combust the MC ruler, which is Mercury indicating hidden affairs. Ruler of Fortune is in the 1st also, but in aversion. I think Spirit made him who he is...
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StellarTiggy



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Posted: Mon Sep 17, 2012 8:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Mark,

This guy has a lot of good placements. First of all, his Fortune is in Capricorn disposed by Saturn and Saturn is in mutual reception with Mars, ruler of the 10th. His 10th from Fortune is also ruled by Mars.

I should also say Mars is exalted is conjunct Fortune. This magnifies all Fortune related activities.

His Spirit from my calculation is in Pisces and Jupiter is in an angle from Spirit, but it is in detriment. The dispositor is Mercury in mutual reception with Venus (co-present with Jupiter), which adds dignity. 2nd from Fortune is Saturn, it is out of sect but in mutual reception with Mars (ruler of Fortune). Regular 2nd house is Jupiter which is in detriment...

I think it came down to Fortune and Spirit again, plus Acquisition is in Taurus ruled by Venus in mutual reception with Mercury. Sun and Mercury are in the Acquisition. Sun combusts Mercury though so I wonder how effective it is. However there's the chariot rule that says signs are effective in their own places regardless of combustion.
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varuna2



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Posted: Mon Sep 17, 2012 10:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

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Tom
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Posted: Tue Sep 18, 2012 1:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Astrodatabank gives an A rating to Gandhi's birth data:
Oct 2 1869
7:11:48 AM (LMT?)
Porbandar, India
26 Libra rises

With the seconds it looks like a rectified time though.

No definitive birth time has ever been established for Abraham Lincoln. The closest we have to documentation is from the memory of an old woman who recalled that Thomas Lincoln sent for the midwife "about Meetin' House time" on a Sunday morning. That would have been most likely about 7:30 AM. The occultist Manly Palmer Hall rectified Lincoln's chart based on this statement and Lincoln's appearance on the Five Dollar Bill and some known photographs of him taken during the Civil War. The prominent mole, Lincoln's great height, and time of day suggested Aries rising, But the 8:50 am time gives Venus in Aries near the ASC and the ASC itself in the bounds of Venus, suggests a better looking man. Lincoln would not have made it as a Hollywood star.

Astrologer Ken Negus once rectified Lincoln's chart and without knowing about Hall's rectification came up with a time about the same as Hall's. "Dr. H" rectified the charts of every US President and their wives. His birth time for Lincoln is: 3:48:55 AM LMT (Feb 12, 1809, Hodgenville KY USA
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favro



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Posted: Sun Sep 23, 2012 6:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

IMO Saturn in Souter's chart cannot receive Fortuna: not only is Saturn out of sect, it is retrograde and peregrine, denying it any kind of possible rulership over Fortuna. On the other hand, exalted Mars in Capricorn can be without hesitation a decent ruler of Fortuna and ruler of it's 11th of Acquisition. I'm not sure about the benefit of the mutual reception between a decent ruler (Mars) and a debilated one (Saturn). Some claim that in this instance Saturn gains some of the dignity of Mars because they are in mutual reception. If so, how much dignity? As much as Mars? I guess one would have to scrutinize Souter's life to see any links between WSH 10th & 12th places and/or 9th & 11th houses by division. Unfortunately short bios available on the net do not provide enough information. Why links between these whole sign places or houses by division? Simply because - for me anyway - reception connects the houses the planets are in.

There is also a lesser receptions known as generosity [no aspect between the planets]: Venus and Mercury [in each other's sign] + Moon and Mercury, Mercury being in the Moon's exaltation sign and Moon being in Mercury's sign linking WSH 4 & 5 and 3 & 4th by division. In WSH, the father 4th and father's money 5th or by division, the father 4th and brothers and sisters 3rd: "with his sister, he established the Stagecoach Bus Company in 1980, starting business with a couple of used buses purchased with his father’s redundancy money." (http://www.astro.com/astro-databank/Souter,_Brian)

Let me start this paragraph on Lots with the following: "Valens says that Fortuna indicates bodily matters (health) as well as general good fortune (what happens to you by chance) [unintended] as opposed to what happens to you as a consequence of your actions which is represented by Spirit." (1) This is how I work with Fortune & Spirit. And in Souter's case there is no doubt in my mind that the Spirit chart which represents intentional action is the one that propelled him to where he is now. Had he waited for Fortuna to shower him with her benefits, he would still be waiting to this day. However the Spirit chart with three planets angular, including the ruler and exalted ruler of Pisces + dignified Mars in the Acquisition 11th provided the basic foundations on which Souter built his empire.

favro


(1) http://skyscript.co.uk/forums/viewtopic.php?t=6332&start=45. 7th post from the top by Zoidsoft
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Ile



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Posted: Mon Sep 24, 2012 11:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

margherita wrote:
Silvio Berlusconi - time mentioned by himself for an astrological consultation



Venus is detriment but in the second house.

Jupiter in the third house (communications) and in its sign. Part of Spirit in Jupiter sign too and in aspect by sign with its ruler.

margherita


Hi Margherita,

Though I'm a Barca fan myself, I enjoy watching how FC Milan plays Smile

I want to add some considerations on his chart. (I haven't read all the posts on the thread, so I apologize if I repeat someone else's consideration on the chart).

The first thing I'm noticing is that the sign of the prenatal New Moon is on the Ascendant:
Quote:
If the sign of the new or full moon or the ruler of this sign happens to be in the Ascendant or at MC, the native will be fortunate.
(Vettius Valens – Anthologies Book II, Riley trans., p.38 )


Hephaistio says that these genitures posses great power:
Quote:
For no small power occurs with the prenatal conjunction whenever it chances to be upon a pivot, especially the Horoscopos and the Midheaven.
(Hephaistio of Thebes – Apotelesmatics, Book II, Schmidt trans., p. 53


Here he says "conjunction" and this is because the paragraph I quoted was given after his delineation of particular nativity which happened to have conjunctional syzygy. I'm sure that he as much as Valens believed that the nativities with preventional syzygy would have the same amount of "power".

So, here we have one indication of Fortune in life.

Another thing I'm noticing is that the Lot of Substance is itself located in 26 Virgo, that is on the Ascendant which is good!

Furthermore, Hephaistio following Ptolemy advises us to look at the twelfth part of the Lot of Fortune:
Quote:
"It is requisite, then, to investigate the stars that assume the rulership of the twelfth part of which upon it falls and how these stars share in power and familiarity"
(Hephaistio of Thebes - Apotelesmatics book II, p.53, Schmidt translation)

Hephaistio says "stars" assuming double rulership (domicile and exaltation, or even terms and etc.). "Familiarity" most probably means dignitiy of any sort (essential and accidental as well).

We can see that the twelfth part of Lot of Fortune is in Sagittarius with the ruler Jupiter in the sign, and as Margherita mentioned, it is also a ruler of the Lot of Spirit and is in the 10th sign from it (regarding it by superior side). This is very good indication for the fortunes.

The thing that the Intellectual Place (Valens), i.e. Spirit, is with the cold malefic contrary to the sect in favor (Saturn), also being retrograde, is good picture of his non-balanced life that touched many extremes.

However, the light of the sect separating from the Spirit and applying to this nasty Saturn is helped by Jupiter it self. Jupiter pushes its own power and virtue to them, and he has what to offer being in its own sign and angular by WS, aspecting them closely through a sympathetic square!

I think this Jupiter is helping much to the light of sect, and much more than its triplicity lords.
I'm in a hurry now, but will add some more later. His life and chart are interesting though Smile

Best,
Ile

-----



Good, the option of "Edit" is still open.
I've read some of the considerations on the chart of Berlusconi and I like them! Especially the thing about the "dark chart" which I think Tzadde mentioned. Thumbs up
This would add to the my earlier consideration about the nasty Saturn in the cold sign of Pisces in the Intellectual Place. The "Darkness" is furthermore added by his dwelling here.

Valens says to use the Lot to which "more stars incline", and in this case this is for sure the Lot of Spirit, taking into consideration that the light of the sect is in the same place, while being received from Jupiter.
So I think that Mark did great thing making a Spirit chart
Thumbs up
As we can see, Lot of Crisis being in conjunction to the Spirit, while Mars regard them from opposition would add to the extremity of his actions (Lot of Spirit would undertake the significations of the native's actions).

Furthermore, ruler of the Exaltation - Sun, is in the angle from Fortune. This is good for rank. Rank, reputation and fortunes (finances) are closely related, even though not always necessary.

Ruler of natal 10th, Mercury in 1st, in its own terms would give the indications of "honors coming to the native", but being retrograde Valens would say that these honors are "transitory", and Schmidt (I suppose drawing from Valens' statement where he delineate a nativity with Jupiter in 11th in Capricorn and retrograde with "wealth that didn't last") would say that this planet "takes away at a later time what gave earlier".

So, as a conclusion I think that I would agree to look at the chart as a Spirit oriented, in which case with Jupiter being elevated above the Spirit in 10th and pushing its own power to the light of the sect from the divisional place of her joy, being ruler of the twelfth part of the Lot of Fortune, is giving quite good amount of dignities and reputation.
Having said that the nativity holds the syzygy sign as ascendant, we could assign him "great power" and fortune.

Aside of this, I think that Saturn even though received by Jupiter in good condition, being cold and dark, in a place of Spirit and Crisis, would give a certain amount of instability in his actions, drawing him from time to time to the deepest darkness of his own mind which would eventually effect his reputation and dignities.
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Tzadde



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Posted: Tue Sep 25, 2012 1:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

NatanEpsilon, I have enjoyed your post. Smile

Just a question. What are the formulae used for Substance and Success? I'm not exactly familiar with Hellenistic approach and I would like to know more.

I also use Morinus. Very Happy
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margherita



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Posted: Tue Sep 25, 2012 3:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

NatanEpsilon wrote:


Another thing I'm noticing is that the Lot of Substance is itself located in 26 Virgo, that is on the Ascendant which is good!


That's very, very interesting.

Berlusconi is someone who divides people, and that is true even for astrology. In fact because of him declaring a different birth time than the BC, in Italy there is the party of Virgo ascendant and the Libra one.

I always supported the Virgo option; in this way for example the MC ruler is the same as the ascendant, angular in the first, and the lot you found could be another point to the Virgo party.

p.s. I'm a Roma supporter, not a Milan one Sad

margherita[/quote]
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Ile



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Posted: Tue Sep 25, 2012 5:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Tzadde!

Tzadde wrote:
NatanEpsilon, I have enjoyed your post. Smile
Just a question. What are the formulae used for Substance and Success? I'm not exactly familiar with Hellenistic approach and I would like to know more.



My approach is not exactly Hellenistic, it is a mixed bag Very Happy
I draw from all the available sources from Dorotheus to Lilly, though I have special affinity toward Valens!

As for the Lot of Substance, I use the medieval (Bonatti) formula:
ASC + House Cusp of 2nd - Ruler of the 2nd. Reversed for night.

I have heard that Schmidt promotes another formula for this Lot, but I don't know it yet Confused
However, this one works just fine in my practice.

Lot of Success is:
ASC + Fortune - Jupiter. Reversed for night.

Quote:
I also use Morinus. Very Happy

It's very handy isn't it?! Smile

Margherita
Quote:
I always supported the Virgo option

Thumbs up If I may use a very elemental physiognomy by the ascending sign, I think I've read at Antiochus of Athens that Virgo and Sagittarius gives men with big forehead.
Berlusconi has a big forehead, and his face looks to me like a Virgo one, and this I judge by the people I know with Virgo ASC.
I'm aware of the fact that the Astrological Physiognomy is much more complex, I just add some considerations, not judging anything.

However, the chart as it is now gives good results.

Quote:
p.s. I'm a Roma supporter, not a Milan one Sad

Ah, I missed that one! Confused
Totti - one of the greatest players in the history of football.


BTW my name is Ile. Natan Epsilon is my art-name lol
I registered on the forum few years ago in my "modern astrology" days, when that anglicized name sounded just fine. If I knew that I would end in traditional astrology I would probably used Natanailus or Nataniohus Very Happy
P.S. I'm glad I was able to change my username and to use my real name in my posts on the forum, which I will use from now on.
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StellarTiggy



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Posted: Tue Sep 25, 2012 5:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tzadde wrote:
NatanEpsilon, I have enjoyed your post. Smile

Just a question. What are the formulae used for Substance and Success? I'm not exactly familiar with Hellenistic approach and I would like to know more.

I also use Morinus. Very Happy


I don't think either of those Lots are hellenistic.
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Marius Cojoc



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Posted: Tue Sep 25, 2012 8:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

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Ile



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Posted: Wed Sep 26, 2012 6:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Dracon,

Dracon wrote:
Greetings to all,
Asc in Virgo with Mercury in Balance, second "whole house". The native seeks and gets money. Why?


I agree. His primary motivation, i.e. the need for material security (Virgo) he will try to fulfill through accumulation of wealth, because the lord of the first is in the second (sign). In other words, he will seek his happiness in accumulating money!
But the second according to Abu Ma'shar (Great Introduction) represents also native's manner of living and behavior. So, having lord of the second turned away from her own domicile, and yet in detriment - but lets not forget, that lord of the first is also in aversion to the domicile (though in the powerful region of 15 degrees after the ASC, very powerful according to Dorotheus) - shows some discontinuity of his manner of living, his behavior, his livelihood.
Aversion shows brakes in communication, lack of control, discontinuity, mistakes and etc.

But how can be, that such a chart, with such a poor condition of the second, to represent a billionaire?!
I think that the chart speaks on some other subtle ways about this. And some of these ways I explained above:
- The syzygy sign as sign on the ASC
- The twelfth part of the fortune in Sagittarius with the ruler Jupiter in the sign. Jupiter rules the 4th, 7th and 11th. 4th shows that he has good starting point in the inheritances from his father (his father was a banker, though Berlusconi did great in his life on his own). 7th shows through partnerships, and he was known taking even open enemies (people from the opposite parties) into his own party in order to win the elections. And 11th - friends and groups (organization), like the FC Milan for example. I think that many FC Milan fans, back in the early 2000's didn't allowed to say a bad word for Berlusconi. And we know how many fans this club has only in Italy. I think that this Jupiter made a great deal of favors in his life, and this is one of the good examples to see how a good Jupiter can do great amount of job in favor in someone's life.

Some would argue that this Jupiter is retreating from an angle and therefore weak. I'm not sure for that though; he is on a pivot, in its own sign, and direct in motion.
It is true that this Jupiter is contrary to the sect of favor, and this would "harm" him qualitatively, but in my opinion he will not stop to do goods.

Another thing in favor to this Jupiter is that he is ruler of Spirit elevated above it in 10th. I just saw that Pars Hyleg is also in Pisces, in 17th degree conjuncting Saturn.

But as Dracon said, this Jupiter being the only ruler (triplicity) regarding the second house (notice that even the term ruler does not regard the 2nd) will try to do good to the house.
This Jupiter is also Almuten of these places:
- Pars Hyleg and its ruler.
- Spirit and its ruler.
- Fortune and its ruler.
- Exaltation and its ruler.

What we see here is a strong Jupiter elevated above the Spirit (significator of actions) in 10th.
Spirit, Pars Hyleg and Crisis are co-present with the light of the sect (Moon) and the contrary to sect malefic (Saturn) in bad shape.
We can see that this Saturn conjuncting the Pars Hyleg and Light of the Sect, shows that part of his life purpose is to engage in many relationships with women (Moon in feminine sign in 7th in double-body sign) and enjoying in sexual pleasures (Saturn conjunct Pars Hyleg is Lord of the Lot of Sexual Unions in 24 Aquarius, also ruler of 5th of pleasures. Supporting this is Lot of Marriage in Taurus in licentious sign, and Venus in the terms of Mars).
Jupiter as ruler of Pars Hyleg, and elevated in 10th from Spirit, shows the other part of this purpose, being elevated politician and governor of state affairs (with Saturn mudding the waters of his reputation through inappropriate actions).

All the good and bad signified by the house or the planet in house, comes from the ruler of that house (Morin). So we can see that all these points in Pisces are helped by Jupiter as their host in his own domicile. Jupiter is also Almuten of the angles 4th and 7th.

Let's not forget that he become prime minister and his best in life (correct me if I'm wrong) came in his late 50's when Jupiter was lord of the Ptolemaic Ages. His bad reputation reached its peak in the rulership of Saturn, engaging with many young women (Moon) in his late years (7th).

I think Bonatti was quoting someone of the Persians when he says that those who has Jupiter as ruler of the Ascendant would never be in total poverty in their life, no matter how bad the chart is. We can take this into our consideration seeing how this so accentuated Jupiter in his chart, brought the many advancements in his life, alongside with the other powerful points I've mentioned in my first post above.

Here we see a man with many faces (common angles), man interested in many fields of life, man who enjoys the pleasures, and a man with discontinuity in his manner of life and behavior (2nd house with rulers in aversion, and also have in mind Saturn on Spirit and Light of the sect), but man with certain amount of personal power (syzygy on first pivot) and luck in life to be elevated on a certain position in his late years, or in his old age (7th and 4th angle accentuated by the rulership of Jupiter).

P.S. I know that the theme on this thread is Financial Significator, but I felt the need to show some other points of his life too. I think we can not look at the FS in isolation and as a stand alone factor.
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favro



Joined: 29 Mar 2010
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Posted: Wed Sep 26, 2012 1:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tzadde wrote:
None of the Luminaries is above the horizon, which makes a "dark" chart, that is a chart without Light (either of night or of day). Charts like this makes things unclear when we want to look for the native's life and various circumstances, like his financial situation.


Mark wrote:
Very nice observation about the 'dark' chart. I hadn't thought of that but it makes perfect sense and seems to fit the native well.



I can understand the "dark chart" delineation in Berlusconi's case, but I am at loss to find any parallel with Brian Souter's life which has also both luminaries below the horizon. Could either Tzadde or Mark enlighten us?

favro
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Marius Cojoc



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Posted: Wed Sep 26, 2012 7:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

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