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Consultation chart
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laraS



Joined: 29 Aug 2012
Posts: 3

Posted: Wed Aug 29, 2012 2:33 pm    Post subject: Consultation chart Reply with quote

Hi all,
I am starting to work with consultation charts, as an experiment, to see if they really add interesting information about what the client is going through.
In the age of internet consultations though, I suddenly wonder, what location should be used if the astrologer and the clients are quite far away from each other? The astrologer's location or the client's?
I would expect the astrologer's, but would appreciate any comment.
Thanks, LaraS
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Kenneth Johnson



Joined: 12 Aug 2012
Posts: 122
Location: San Luis Obispo, CA

Posted: Wed Aug 29, 2012 2:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks, lara, that's a great question, and one which has caused a lot of head-scratching for me as well.

Most horary astrologers I have met use the time and place when the question first comes to the astrologer's attention. Usually, in modern times, this means the moment when the astrologer first opens the client's e-mail, and it also means that the chart is cast for the astrologer's location.

Anyway, that seems to be a common opinion, one that I have often heard. But what do you horary experts think about it?
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Tzadde



Joined: 07 Apr 2011
Posts: 137

Posted: Wed Aug 29, 2012 6:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I am not an expert, just experienced in horary. I say that the question matters, so it is born only when two people know about it, the querent stating it by speech or writing and the astrologer by receiving the question. Because the astrologer is the receiver, the one who makes the question a mentally concrete matter (hope I make sense), his time and place are to be considered the question's coordinates.

I don't know if I was clear enough. In the old times, it was something extremely obvious for the old folks that there should be two who make a question. Just like a father (querent) and a mother (astrologer) with a child (question)... all three with their respective charts...

About the consultation charts, it is a really good call. Many querents don't know what or how to ask, so the astrologer can erect a consultation chart in order to see what is the problem... Looking at the Moon's aspects with the planetary hour and day rulers should be good enough.
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Saturngirl



Joined: 03 Apr 2008
Posts: 165
Location: England

Posted: Wed Aug 29, 2012 8:53 pm    Post subject: Consultation Chart Reply with quote

Hi laraS,
I too am fascinated by this ancient form of Art after attending a talk given by Vernon Wells of the COA,at "Lilly Day",in Walton on Thames last month.
There's a transcript of his talk available on his website,
www.vernwells.com,
Wishes SG Very Happy

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Geoffrey



Joined: 09 Jul 2012
Posts: 345
Location: Scottish Borders

Posted: Thu Aug 30, 2012 5:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lee Lehman (Martial Art of Horary Astrology, page 314) points out that the 'mother of consultation charts' was the chart set up for the time of receiving a urine sample from a patient. ("Urine casting")

Such charts were always set up for the urine caster's location, despite the fact that the patient was usually somewhat removed from that location. True, the locations were usually close enough that it did not matter which was chosen, but the principle remains.

Geoffrey
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Tzadde



Joined: 07 Apr 2011
Posts: 137

Posted: Fri Aug 31, 2012 7:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't think the original poster meant medical consultation, just the consultation that precedes horary...
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Atlantean



Joined: 14 Aug 2009
Posts: 370

Posted: Fri Aug 31, 2012 8:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hello

Re: "I suddenly wonder, what location should be used if the astrologer and the clients are quite far away from each other? The astrologer's location or the client's?"

I have used these charts for quite some time, now...always using the client's location. Especially look for angular contacts and for aspects that are mirroring natal aspects.

Take care

James
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Geoffrey



Joined: 09 Jul 2012
Posts: 345
Location: Scottish Borders

Posted: Fri Aug 31, 2012 8:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tzadde wrote:
I don't think the original poster meant medical consultation, just the consultation that precedes horary...


Hello Tzadde

I obviously did not make myself clear. The 'original poster' asked where the location for a consultation chart should be placed, with the astrologer or with the client. Too, the qualification that the consultation was of a horary nature was not specified by LaraS

I posited that the historical precedent for all consultation charts - the "mother of consultation charts" - was urine casting, where the location used was always that of the "urine caster" (who may, or may not have been a practising astrologer)

The chart in that case was cast for the reception of the urine sample before it was examined (tasted, smelled) to help determine what the cause of the illness may be.

I submit (Lee Lehman submits) that there is a good comparison between urine casting and casting a consultation chart at the start of a consultation between client and astrologer.

Geoffrey
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laraS



Joined: 29 Aug 2012
Posts: 3

Posted: Fri Aug 31, 2012 8:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thank you all for the insightful comments and links to articles. Wonderful.

What I meant (I have the impression that I have not been too clear on this) was really the chart of the time the consultation takes place, not related to a horary question, but used in a horary technique way.
I know that A. Duncan, for one, uses this technique extensively to get background information about what the client will bring in. And it seems to work pretty well. I will start using it now, and wondered about your experiences in this matter.
Thanks again
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###



Joined: 08 Jul 2004
Posts: 1381

Posted: Sun Sep 02, 2012 10:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

. . .

Last edited by ### on Wed Oct 24, 2012 12:26 am; edited 1 time in total
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Atlantean



Joined: 14 Aug 2009
Posts: 370

Posted: Mon Sep 03, 2012 12:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kirk,

You're presenting a philosophical argument as to which location should be used. I am trying to be more pragmatic and describe which method has produced the obviously working chart. (often the themes on the mind of the querent are so obvious in the Consultation chart that the Natal Chart really was not necessary in order to see the concerns of the client)

The Ascendant is the person asking the question...the Descendant is the Astrologer. This makes the querent the "main person of the chart" by his location at the Ascendant. It only makes sense to use his location for the chart.

If you're consulting clients by phone, just cast two charts...one with his location and one with yours. It is likely that you'll only have to do this test once...

Read Adrian Ross Duncan's masterful Astrology: Transformation & Empowerment. He goes to some length about Consultation charts and mentions an extended testing period of looking at both charts. His results and he says there are no doubts is that the location of the querent is the correct one. Having used this method a lot, I totally agree with his conclusions.


James
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###



Joined: 08 Jul 2004
Posts: 1381

Posted: Mon Sep 03, 2012 8:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

. . .

Last edited by ### on Wed Oct 24, 2012 12:26 am; edited 1 time in total
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Atlantean



Joined: 14 Aug 2009
Posts: 370

Posted: Tue Sep 04, 2012 7:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hello Kirk,

Re: "I hope you're not too hurt..."

It's an astrology discussion. I don't think there's any chance of getting hurt from any element of it.

Astrology is vitally important to me, but discussions on an internet forum? That's for FUN and to SHARE... when it ceases to be fun, I'll spend my time in other ways.

We don't need to argue about any of it. I tell you what works for me... you try it or not at your own leisure. (and hopefully comment on your experiences)

Have fun!

James
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Paul
Moderator


Joined: 23 Nov 2009
Posts: 1009

Posted: Tue Sep 04, 2012 10:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think there's a problem in the approach to this.

Namely: The consultation is not the horary chart. Event if they shared an origin.

So the consultation chart can be approached differently to the horary chart. If we accept Kirk's viewpoint that it is the diviner that is is, essentially, of importance in a horary chart, then their location is what it is important, they are taking the question and participating in the divination. This is not the case for a consultation chart (potentially!), and the importance is on the querent themselves and the transits they're undergoing at the location that they are.

So we, potentially, have two competing approaches and expecting the same approach to work for both. In my view, and this is again from pragmatic experience, the location of the astrologer is the most effective for a given horary.
A good example would be a missing item horary. My friend text me from Ireland to look for something, I didn't receive the text til the following morning, used my own location and the current time to cast the chart. I did not cast the chart from her location nor from the time I technically received the text - but my own location and the time that I read and understood the text.

Using my own time and my own location I found the item. For my own curiosity I chose her time and her location afterwards and could not find any correlation between where I now knew the item to be and what the chart was suggesting.

The same is probably not true were I to do a consultation chart.
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Paul
Moderator


Joined: 23 Nov 2009
Posts: 1009

Posted: Tue Sep 04, 2012 9:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kirk wrote:


WHY would it probably not be true with a consultation chart? Confused


Because, in my view at least, the consultation chart actually doesn't answer the question. The consultation chart describes the moment, and it's circumstance, about why the question was asked in the first place. The horary chart, on the other hand, answers it.

This is how I view it at least. Whilst they may have sprang from the same origin, I do not see the consultation chart as a 'in disguise' horary chart. The two are, for me at least, different. The time that you sit down to consult with someone and the time that they eventually finish beating around the bush and outright ask you the burning question that they need answering can be very different. I've once sat with someone nearly an hour discussing other topics relating to career and the general trend of the next 12 months before the querent eventually asks a question pressing on her mind about a relationship. The consultation chart and horary chart were not the same. Nor would I go about looking at each as if they were. In my view the consultation chart describes the question but the horary chart answers it.
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