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Time Lords

 
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ea



Joined: 26 Apr 2006
Posts: 45

Posted: Fri Aug 24, 2012 10:57 am    Post subject: Time Lords Reply with quote

At the moment I'm studying different Time Lord systems, but I have trouble understanding what exactly the different systems mean. I would be very greatful if someone wiser than me could for example explain the difference between the Time Lords of the Firdaria and the Time Lords of Directing through the Bounds (that is Primary Directions). I have read that the Primary Directions is the most important method, but where does the Firdaria fit in?

If one then also wants to use Decennials, Quarters of the Moon and other Time Lord methods you all of a sudden have all the planets being a Time Lord so it would be really useful to know just how to separate them from each other.

Anyone?

ea
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zoidsoft



Joined: 10 Feb 2006
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Posted: Fri Aug 24, 2012 6:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I wrote Delphic Oracle for the purpose of researching the various time lord systems; so it has the ability to cross reference various time lord systems and compare them to transits, progressions, etc just by clicking on the graphs and showing the resulting planet positions in the charts.

Some time lord systems are topically specific (such as profections), although profections also have a more general purpose as well.

Zodiacal releasing from fortune gives the times for health, sickness and general happiness and finances. Zodiacal releasing from spirit shows effectiveness of actions and reputation as well as times when one is likely to be away from home, etc.

I have shown many examples here:

http://www.astrology-x-files.com/x-files/

One of which is about the 2012 presidential election...

I'm currently in Martin Gansten's primary directions course. While I already did the semi-arc method and circumambulation through the bounds, I have also finished circle of position calculations in my test app based upon the course and have another routine that does the same semi-arc method differently (the one currently in DO comes from Ed Falis, but at this point some directions are not correct and I think it's because I have not used his routines correctly through the full 360 degree circle). The test app has corrected this but I haven't put it into Delphic Oracle yet. I am currently in Lesson 9 (Placidian innovations) such as mundane parallels, rapt parallels, Placidian part of fortune, placidian under the pole, etc. Right now I'm programming mundane aspects based upon proportional semi-arcs which considers all semi arcs (diurnal and nocturnal) to be equivalent to 90 degrees... While most programs seem to limit themselves to calculating primaries within the span of a human lifetime, I have been using the full 360 degree circle with the addition of extra cycles for those interested in mundane astrology. I expect these innovations to be in the program before the end of the year.
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ea



Joined: 26 Apr 2006
Posts: 45

Posted: Sat Aug 25, 2012 1:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

zoidsoft wrote:
I wrote Delphic Oracle for the purpose of researching the various time lord systems; so it has the ability to cross reference various time lord systems and compare them to transits, progressions, etc just by clicking on the graphs and showing the resulting planet positions in the charts.

Some time lord systems are topically specific (such as profections), although profections also have a more general purpose as well.

Zodiacal releasing from fortune gives the times for health, sickness and general happiness and finances. Zodiacal releasing from spirit shows effectiveness of actions and reputation as well as times when one is likely to be away from home, etc.

I have shown many examples here:

http://www.astrology-x-files.com/x-files/


Yes, Delphic Oracle is a great program for studying the different Time Lord techniques. And the articles are very illuminating as how to use the different methods so thank you for the link Thumbs up
I didn't find anything about Firdaria versus Primary Directions, however. Do you have an opinion about that?

Good luck with your studies and programming of the PD's. Sounds very good.

ea
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Kenneth Johnson



Joined: 12 Aug 2012
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Location: San Luis Obispo, CA

Posted: Sat Aug 25, 2012 4:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have not seen an earlier example of the Firdaria than Abu Ma'shar (787-889) in his book on Solar Revolutions. There are two English versions, one from Rob Schmidt and one from Ben Dykes. Where Abu Ma'shar got them is not known. Maybe he invented them. We're talking about a guy who created his own version of the legend of Hermes Trismegistus so that he could include characters from Zoroastrian myth, who gave the beginning date of the Kali Yuga as the date for Noah's Flood, and who cheerfully tossed the Hindu navamshas into his system of Time Lords for Solar Returns. He was a bit of a trickster, to say the least.

The firdaria don't show up in the majority of medieval sources, though they do show up in the work of Johannes Schoener (1477-1547), regarding whom there is a fair amount of info here on skyscript. At times, Schoener is simply paraphrasing Abu Ma'shar. This, as well as the absence of the firdaria system in so many medieval works, leads one to wonder if it was commonly used or just part of the theoretical repertoire.

The "circumambulation of the bounds" which establishes Time Lords by way of primary direction through the terms or bounds, on the other hand, was commonly used by many astrologers in Hellenistic and throughout medieval times.

I thoroughly understand what you mean when you say that if you use all possible Time Lord systems, you end up with mush because every planet becomes a Time Lord. I have seen this happen many times in the context of Vedic astrology when someone tries to use Vimshottari Dasha as well as Yogini dasha, Kalachakra Dasha, etc., all in the same chart.

You really do have to examine them, decide which ones appeal to you, experiment with horoscopes until you can make them work, and then incorporate those in your tool kit.

Of the Hellenistic systems, perhaps the most exotic is "the Releasing from Fortune and Spirit," mentioned by Curtis above and detailed in a recent article in TMA by Chris Brennan. It is this Time Lord system, more than any other, which seems to create the greatest and most positive enthusiasm in the astrological community at large.
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zoidsoft



Joined: 10 Feb 2006
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Posted: Sat Aug 25, 2012 6:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kenneth Johnson wrote:
I thoroughly understand what you mean when you say that if you use all possible Time Lord systems, you end up with mush because every planet becomes a Time Lord...


Many time lord systems in Hellenistic astrology have implied topics which narrow the area in which a planet is applied as a time lord. For instance zodiacal releasing from spirit only applies to ones actions and reputation and travels. Schmidt has said for instance that because the Decennials time lord system so closely represents the predomination argument, that it was probably meant to be used to find when one encounters ones "life purpose". Some systems though don't have an obvious topic such as quarters of the Moon and primary directions through the bounds are a general time lord system when the hyleg or ascendant is directed through the bounds, but become topically specific when a planet or lot is drected...

As for the general time lord systems from which a topic can't easily be derived such as the Balbillus method, lunar quarters, etc... it was my motivation to line these all up in a graph so that the timeline can slice through vertically (when the display is horizontal) to see if there is a predomination of a given planet active at a given time (I've been calling these "temporal almutens"). This happens most frequently with the planet Saturn because it generally is the longest period, but it is useful to note when a heavy predominance of one planet is active, even if the planet involved is topically specific because it creates a lot of stress on that one planet at the time that it is active.



The idea is to line the dotted line up and count the number of times that dotted line crosses the same color. Saturn was crossed 4 times and turned out to be a very important and stressful period full of changes in many areas at the same time.

Ken... I saw you lecture in Cumberland in August 2006, didn't I?
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ea



Joined: 26 Apr 2006
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Posted: Sat Aug 25, 2012 7:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thank you ever so much, gentlemen, for taking the time to sort things out for me. Your answers have been really helpful.

I didn't realize that the Firdaria is that recent an invention (should read my history better).

Yes, testing the different methods is the only way to come to grips with the problem, I know. As it is a lot of work I wanted to "cheat" and see if somebody had already figured out how these different Time Lords worked. And I'm really glad I asked as you two have helped me a lot with your detailed explanations.

And now I'm off to start testing. Luckily I have Delphic Oracle so I will be able to do it. Without this program I'd be lost.

Best wishes
ea
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Kenneth Johnson



Joined: 12 Aug 2012
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Posted: Sat Aug 25, 2012 11:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Curtis, yes, that was me at the Project Hindsight Conclave in Cumberland 2006. I was lecturing on Jyotish at the time but find myself increasingly more interested in Hellenistic astrology as time goes on.
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Tom
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Posted: Sun Aug 26, 2012 10:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
I didn't find anything about Firdaria versus Primary Directions, however. Do you have an opinion about that?


I'm not going to do a compare and contrast, but thought I'd mention this: in volume 22 of Astrologia Gallica Morin mentions firdaria and not too surprisingly finds them inferior to primary directions on the grounds that primaries are natural or rather based on natural movement of the planets and firdaria is purely symbolic. However he refers to firdaria as "progressions." Or at least that is how Holden translated it. We might find more medieval references to firdaria if we looked for something closer to the word "progressions" and not assumed the referred to secondary progressions a much more recent development.
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ea



Joined: 26 Apr 2006
Posts: 45

Posted: Mon Aug 27, 2012 6:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tom wrote:

I'm not going to do a compare and contrast, but thought I'd mention this: in volume 22 of Astrologia Gallica Morin mentions firdaria and not too surprisingly finds them inferior to primary directions on the grounds that primaries are natural or rather based on natural movement of the planets and firdaria is purely symbolic. However he refers to firdaria as "progressions." Or at least that is how Holden translated it. We might find more medieval references to firdaria if we looked for something closer to the word "progressions" and not assumed the referred to secondary progressions a much more recent development.



Yes, I have also understood that primary directions are the most important time lord system. I have never, however, thought of Firdarias as a kind of "progressions", but then I'm not that familiar with Morin and his work. Morin may well be a very good astrologer for all I know, but for my purpose here he is too modern as I'm studying Hellenistic methods. But thank you for your comment.

ea
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Zagata



Joined: 15 Dec 2011
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Posted: Mon Aug 27, 2012 8:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hello ea and everyone,

I have also been studying the Hellenistic materials and I having some difficulty mixing them with the Medieval ones that I am so used to.
For example, I have a tremendous respect for Morin who, despite his arrogance and know it all attitude, came up with a system: nativity, directions, solar revolutions then lunar ones for the month.
The Hellenistic material either has no explicit systematization or is simply not meant to cover shorter periods like months and weeks. I am yet to see anyone do monthly predictions with the Hellenistic material (it is just so broad). The same holds true for derived Houses and making predictions from a chart about other people in the native's life (predeceasing of the parents does not count).
Also, besides Morin, Gaurico used monthly solar revolutions, the Arabs used profections and directing the revolution for short term predictions (see Umar).

On the other hand, the Hellenistic materials contain information not found anywhere, which make them invaluable. For example, I am not at all sure that using only Medieval can tell whether a person will have their own business or will be an employee all their life (we can't even agree which House would rule that business; some like Zoller even say that the one's own business is a 5th House matter). There is simply more going on here than temperament, psysiognomy and one's professional significator.


P.S. Primary directions are not a time lord system, although they are very powerful. Directing through the terms is such.
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zoidsoft



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Posted: Mon Aug 27, 2012 12:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Zagata wrote:
The Hellenistic material either has no explicit systematization or is simply not meant to cover shorter periods like months and weeks. I am yet to see anyone do monthly predictions with the Hellenistic material (it is just so broad)...


I highlighted the above in bold to emphasize that it has no explicit systematization in the sense of a modern journalistic exposition of the various techniques, but Schmidt does argue that it is highly systematized, but the literary devices used were of a rather occult nature. Monthly and daily profections are in Valens and he says one can do sub-divisions down into hours for various time lord systems such as zodiacal releasing, decennials, quarters of the Moon, etc... See how I have used various time lord methods here:

http://www.astrology-x-files.com/x-files/election2012.html

Quote:
P.S. Primary directions are not a time lord system, although they are very powerful. Directing through the terms is such.


Dorotheus used a method he called "circumambulations through the bounds" which used oblique ascensions. Dorotheus conceptualized this method of directing when the ascendant was in the bounds of a given planet as one in which that planet was a time lord for circumstances involving the ascendant as significator. Ptolemy objected to the use of oblique ascensions on the mathematical grounds that it doesn't fit astronomical reality for anything other than the ascendant or planets which happen to be upon the ascendant. The circumambulations are the precursor to the semi-arc method of primary directing that Ptolemy espoused upon which later traditions reinterpreted Ptolemy creating such derivations as the circle of position and directing under the poles of varius planets, etc...
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Zagata



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Posted: Mon Aug 27, 2012 1:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hello Curtis,


Curtis said:

Monthly and daily profections are in Valens and he says one can do sub-divisions down into hours for various time lord systems such as zodiacal releasing, decennials, quarters of the Moon.


I have read Valens, yet in the 100 charts he published he demonstrated the smaller divisions (monthly, daily) in just a few, giving no rules, as usual. Likewise for the different techniques not mentioned by other surviving authors.
That is why I am leaning towards decennials because it is confirmed by others.
Aphesis from Spirit and Fortune has also shown to work consistently, but I am having doubts about some of the keys given for profections in Book 5 - they are just too many!


Curtis said:

but Schmidt does argue that it is highly systematized, but the literary devices used were of a rather occult nature.


I am familiar with Schmidt's arguments and quite agree with him. I mean even ignoring for a moment the oaths and curses in Valens, the very style with which he writes is like no other I have come across, and when you add that it was in Ancient Greek it gets all the more tricky.
But bottom line is that we need to use those secret techniques and see not only how much each of them is worth but how to synthesize them - something even Valens does not explain (at least in written form).


Curtis said:

Ptolemy objected to the use of oblique ascensions on the mathematical grounds that it doesn't fit astronomical reality for anything other than the ascendant or planets which happen to be upon the ascendant. The circumambulations are the precursor to the semi-arc method of primary directing that Ptolemy espoused


Exactly. He may have disagreed all he wanted but the technique he presented is not the original one for the length of life.
If I had to choose between primary directions and directing through the bounds I would pick the latter.


I have read all your articles and have learned a lot - thank you for that.
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margherita



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Posted: Mon Aug 27, 2012 1:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

zoidsoft wrote:
The circumambulations are the precursor to the semi-arc method of primary directing that Ptolemy espoused upon which later traditions reinterpreted Ptolemy creating such derivations as the circle of position and directing under the poles of varius planets, etc...


Let's say that without a software it's very difficult to calculate Ptolemy's directions.

On the other hand under-the-pole and Regiomontanian are very easy to calculate by hand, you need just to calculate the pole and voila, with whatever oblique ascension table you can calculate directions in seconds.

I can very easily understand why they were invented.
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zoidsoft



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Posted: Mon Aug 27, 2012 3:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

margherita wrote:
Let's say that without a software it's very difficult to calculate Ptolemy's directions.

On the other hand under-the-pole and Regiomontanian are very easy to calculate by hand, you need just to calculate the pole and voila, with whatever oblique ascension table you can calculate directions in seconds.

I can very easily understand why they were invented.


Same thing with Placidus "under the pole" which is an approximation of the semi-arc method.

As for the semi-arc method, it was a tedious task finding what quadrant the promissor and significator were in, then deriving each of the NSA's and DSA's then finding the proportion, then adding all the different arcs depending upon which quadrant the moving point starts from and which point the fixed point is in. In this case there are 16 conditionals: one for the proportional point that is fixed and then 4 in each to finish the AOD (Arc of Direction). I did this wanting to have directions for thousands of years into the future for mundane astrology.

The calculation of the "rational method" is also much more programmer friendly.

I have finished the circle of position method (but not yet in Delphic Oracle). It is in a test app that I'm writing based upon Martin Gansten's primary directions course. I'm currently in Lesson 9 (Placidian innovations) and have added the calculation or mundane, rapt parallels and parallels of declination to the test application...
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ea



Joined: 26 Apr 2006
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Posted: Mon Aug 27, 2012 4:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Zagata wrote:
Hello ea and everyone,

P.S. Primary directions are not a time lord system, although they are very powerful. Directing through the terms is such.


Thanks for the correction. I actually meant directing through the terms when I wrote primary directions. That was sloppy writing of me. And thank you also for joining this thread, you've made some good points.

ea
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