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Do you take the 10th house ruler if the MC falls in the 11th
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StellarTiggy



Joined: 17 May 2011
Posts: 148

Posted: Tue Aug 21, 2012 8:58 pm    Post subject: Do you take the 10th house ruler if the MC falls in the 11th Reply with quote

Hi,

Just a straightforward question here about a career horary. If the MC falls in the 11th house, do you still pay attention to the whole sign 10th? This horary has the 10th house ruler applying to the 1st house ruler (Mercury and Jupiter). However, the MC falls in the 11th house ruled by Libra, so do we care about Venus?

It begins to get convoluted, honestly, because the 10th house ruler Mercury in Leo applies swiftly towards Jupiter in Gemini, while the Moon is in Libra, conjunct the MC, in mutual reception with Venus, BUT past the perfecting square (Moon in Libra in mutual reception with Venus in Cancer.)

What do you think?

EDIT: HERE IS THE CHART FOR ANYONE WHO WISHES TO READ IT. I'VE ALREADY WRITTEN A PARTIAL INTERPRETATION IN THE POSTS.

http://www.astro.com/tmpd/cn0jfileeZ4LgH-u1019876821/astro_2gw_2157_will_i_get_a_job_before_graduation.84734.28001.gif?29383[img][/img]


Last edited by StellarTiggy on Thu Aug 23, 2012 11:33 pm; edited 4 times in total
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kerenhappuch



Joined: 07 Jul 2005
Posts: 392
Location: UK

Posted: Tue Aug 21, 2012 10:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi StellarTiggy,

As you'll notice around the forum, the usual house type for horary is Regiomontanus. It has unequal houses and the MC is always the 10th house cusp.

Whole sign houses are more commonly used in Vedic astrology, if you're keen to use whole signs then maybe someone over there could help you out.

There have been a couple of job horaries on here lately, maybe those posts could shed some light on your chart.

Let us know how you get on!

Keren
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Kenneth Johnson



Joined: 12 Aug 2012
Posts: 129
Location: San Luis Obispo, CA

Posted: Wed Aug 22, 2012 12:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I am not sure whether whole sign houses were ever used in Western astrology. Chris Brennan has argued that there isn't any genuine horary astrology in the Hellenistic repertoire, so your question can't be answered from that point of view.

There is a lengthy discussion in the introduction to Ben Dykes' translation of Sahl and Masha'allah as to the circumstances under which early Arabic astrologers used whole sign houses and when they used quadrant houses. I don't remember if he discusses Midheaven issues, but if you have access to that book, you might check there.

In prashna or Sanskrit horary astrology, the tenth whole-sign house always indicates career. The precise degree of the MC is never considered in a judgment. They understood the concept of the MC, and called it meshurana, which is based on the Greek, but in all the texts I have examined I have never seen them use the exact MC point as the indicator of career, only the Tenth House.
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Kenneth Johnson



Joined: 12 Aug 2012
Posts: 129
Location: San Luis Obispo, CA

Posted: Wed Aug 22, 2012 2:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

OOPS!

Quote:
I am not sure whether whole sign houses were ever used in Western astrology.


Obviously, I meant Western horary astrology, not Western astrology in general!
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pankajdubey



Joined: 17 Nov 2006
Posts: 941
Location: Delhi

Posted: Wed Aug 22, 2012 4:58 am    Post subject: Re: Do you take the 10th house ruler if the MC falls in the Reply with quote

StellarTiggy wrote:
Hi,

Just a straightforward question here about a career horary. If the MC falls in the 11th house, do you still pay attention to the whole sign 10th? This horary has the 10th house ruler applying to the 1st house ruler (Mercury and Jupiter). However, the MC falls in the 11th house ruled by Libra, so do we care about Venus?

It begins to get convoluted, honestly, because the 10th house ruler Mercury in Leo applies swiftly towards Jupiter in Gemini, while the Moon is in Libra, conjunct the MC, in mutual reception with Venus, BUT past the perfecting square (Moon in Libra in mutual reception with Venus in Cancer.)

What do you think?


Could they be telling the same thing Idea
Moon applying to a trine of 1st lord-Jupiter (from the square of MC lord Venus).
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StellarTiggy



Joined: 17 May 2011
Posts: 148

Posted: Wed Aug 22, 2012 4:57 pm    Post subject: Re: Do you take the 10th house ruler if the MC falls in the Reply with quote

pankajdubey wrote:
StellarTiggy wrote:
Hi,

Just a straightforward question here about a career horary. If the MC falls in the 11th house, do you still pay attention to the whole sign 10th? This horary has the 10th house ruler applying to the 1st house ruler (Mercury and Jupiter). However, the MC falls in the 11th house ruled by Libra, so do we care about Venus?

It begins to get convoluted, honestly, because the 10th house ruler Mercury in Leo applies swiftly towards Jupiter in Gemini, while the Moon is in Libra, conjunct the MC, in mutual reception with Venus, BUT past the perfecting square (Moon in Libra in mutual reception with Venus in Cancer.)

What do you think?


Could they be telling the same thing Idea
Moon applying to a trine of 1st lord-Jupiter (from the square of MC lord Venus).


Dear poster,

I would post this chart for you if it didn't take an arm and a leg.

The Moon (23 degrees Libra) was past the trine from Jupiter. It was applying to Saturn. So there was a Moon, Saturn, Mars (in that order) conjunction right on the MC in the 11th house. Some people say that's an argument for acquisition. And then there is also the application by sextile between the 10th house lord and the 1st house lord. Meaning either way the answer would be 'yes' but I hope this is not just wishful thinking.
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Tzadde



Joined: 07 Apr 2011
Posts: 137

Posted: Wed Aug 22, 2012 8:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The Moon is conjunct MC, thus is the most powerful planet, so we have to look closely to her. The conjunction with MC makes Moon the accidental significator of the career.

Yes, the Whole Sign scenario points out a straightforward "yes", just the way you described, but you were wondering whether the same answer could be get by using a different House system, if I understood correctly your first post.

If so, then I would say "yes", because Saturn also rules 1st, by the intercepted Capricorn in 1st. The Moon applies to Saturn, so there you have it.

Also, notice the degrees between Mercury and Jupiter (around 2) and between Moon and Saturn (also around 2). That means in two days - movable Sign in angular House, because the Moon is used for time units in most horaries - you will get the job (if that was the question).
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StellarTiggy



Joined: 17 May 2011
Posts: 148

Posted: Thu Aug 23, 2012 2:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tzadde wrote:
The Moon is conjunct MC, thus is the most powerful planet, so we have to look closely to her. The conjunction with MC makes Moon the accidental significator of the career.

Yes, the Whole Sign scenario points out a straightforward "yes", just the way you described, but you were wondering whether the same answer could be get by using a different House system, if I understood correctly your first post.

If so, then I would say "yes", because Saturn also rules 1st, by the intercepted Capricorn in 1st. The Moon applies to Saturn, so there you have it.

Also, notice the degrees between Mercury and Jupiter (around 2) and between Moon and Saturn (also around 2). That means in two days - movable Sign in angular House, because the Moon is used for time units in most horaries - you will get the job (if that was the question).


Tzadde, tomorrow will have been 2 days and I haven't applied to any jobs in the last 2 days!! But it might be 2 months, which is a little more realistic because this is my last semester in school!
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Clinton Soule



Joined: 14 Sep 2008
Posts: 471
Location: Reno, Nevada

Posted: Thu Aug 23, 2012 7:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Stellar twiggy says:


Quote:
Just a straightforward question here about a career horary. If the MC falls in the 11th house, do you still pay attention to the whole sign 10th? This horary has the 10th house ruler applying to the 1st house ruler (Mercury and Jupiter). However, the MC falls in the 11th house ruled by Libra, so do we care about Venus?


The Midheaven can never be in the horary's 11th, did you mean the horary's midheaven is in the querant's natal 11th?

Also I have noticed many lately have not posted the data of the chart(time, place, date) in a concise manner where others can view the chart. It helps to be able to calculate it and view it.

Also many are trying to post charts on astro.com and they have not tested the method they are using out properly and this is happening frequently.

If you go to the post you can post the web link that stays, 'If' you bother following directions:

http://skyscript.co.uk/forums/viewtopic.php?t=6849&sid=4aa5e621f804671e499c0091f2ccfb16
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StellarTiggy



Joined: 17 May 2011
Posts: 148

Posted: Thu Aug 23, 2012 11:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Clinton Soule wrote:
Stellar twiggy says:


Quote:
Just a straightforward question here about a career horary. If the MC falls in the 11th house, do you still pay attention to the whole sign 10th? This horary has the 10th house ruler applying to the 1st house ruler (Mercury and Jupiter). However, the MC falls in the 11th house ruled by Libra, so do we care about Venus?


The Midheaven can never be in the horary's 11th, did you mean the horary's midheaven is in the querant's natal 11th?

Also I have noticed many lately have not posted the data of the chart(time, place, date) in a concise manner where others can view the chart. It helps to be able to calculate it and view it.

Also many are trying to post charts on astro.com and they have not tested the method they are using out properly and this is happening frequently.

If you go to the post you can post the web link that stays, 'If' you bother following directions:

http://skyscript.co.uk/forums/viewtopic.php?t=6849&sid=4aa5e621f804671e499c0091f2ccfb16


Let me make it more clear for you,

THE HORARY'S MC FALLING IN THE HORARY'S 11TH HOUSE.

You should check out some horary tutorials available for novices, I am sure they could help you get acquainted with horary.
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Tzadde



Joined: 07 Apr 2011
Posts: 137

Posted: Fri Aug 24, 2012 9:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Clinton, it is about two House systems, Placidus (as StellarTiggy have used in this particular case) and Whole Signs, in the same chart, and here MC have "fallen" in 11th Whole Sign.
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Paul
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Joined: 23 Nov 2009
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Posted: Fri Aug 24, 2012 10:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

It's really a simple question - which house system are you using?

If you're using whole signs then you've already made the choice that the cusp of the 10th whole sign house is the key player, if you're using a quadrant based house system then you've already made the choice that the MC is instead.

So just stick to the convention of whatever house system you've already chosen to use. Most use Regiomontanus because Lilly did it, and if it's good enough for him... but other people use whole and equal and whatever else.
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Clinton Soule



Joined: 14 Sep 2008
Posts: 471
Location: Reno, Nevada

Posted: Fri Aug 24, 2012 11:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Steller Tiggy said:

Quote:
THE HORARY'S MC FALLING IN THE HORARY'S 11TH HOUSE.

You should check out some horary tutorials available for novices, I am sure they could help you get acquainted with horary.


Stellar Tiggy, as Paul stated:

Quote:
So just stick to the convention of whatever house system you've already chosen to use. Most use Regiomontanus because Lilly did it, and if it's good enough for him... but other people use whole and equal and whatever else.


Most of us use Regio, a few use Placidus because so many Ancients did, but Lilly had other oppinions about this matter.

Stellar Tiggy, I'm the first to admit that I Do Not know everything about astrology nor about horary. As Lilly admitted in '..Mr. B's House..' under his fourth house queries, that he as a Taurus Sun had made mistakes in horary, which as you know it's very rare for a Sol in Taurus to admit they made a mistake. That's why there are so few of them in divorce court. So it says quite a bit about Lilly's integrity to admit his error on buying that house.

So if you have any Tututorial courses or books to recomend, I and most of the Forum I'm sure welcome the sources you inspire.

I was Not trying to berate you or any poster on this Forum or any other List. It's just when it comes to discusion I can come on like a train engine coming down the track; my own map you understand.

So Please Stellar Tiggy, share more of these concepts as Paul and Tzadde have evidently studied these other house systems and many of us who are ignorant yet in lust of more astro wisdom are truly 'enquiring minds wanting to know'.

Sources, web sites, and actual flesh and blood authors are appreciated too!

Clinton Garrett Soule

Wise men truly know how little they know
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StellarTiggy



Joined: 17 May 2011
Posts: 148

Posted: Sat Aug 25, 2012 5:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Not a problem!

Clinton Soule wrote:
Steller Tiggy said:

Quote:
THE HORARY'S MC FALLING IN THE HORARY'S 11TH HOUSE.

You should check out some horary tutorials available for novices, I am sure they could help you get acquainted with horary.


Stellar Tiggy, as Paul stated:

Quote:
So just stick to the convention of whatever house system you've already chosen to use. Most use Regiomontanus because Lilly did it, and if it's good enough for him... but other people use whole and equal and whatever else.


Most of us use Regio, a few use Placidus because so many Ancients did, but Lilly had other oppinions about this matter.

Stellar Tiggy, I'm the first to admit that I Do Not know everything about astrology nor about horary. As Lilly admitted in '..Mr. B's House..' under his fourth house queries, that he as a Taurus Sun had made mistakes in horary, which as you know it's very rare for a Sol in Taurus to admit they made a mistake. That's why there are so few of them in divorce court. So it says quite a bit about Lilly's integrity to admit his error on buying that house.

So if you have any Tututorial courses or books to recomend, I and most of the Forum I'm sure welcome the sources you inspire.

I was Not trying to berate you or any poster on this Forum or any other List. It's just when it comes to discusion I can come on like a train engine coming down the track; my own map you understand.

So Please Stellar Tiggy, share more of these concepts as Paul and Tzadde have evidently studied these other house systems and many of us who are ignorant yet in lust of more astro wisdom are truly 'enquiring minds wanting to know'.

Sources, web sites, and actual flesh and blood authors are appreciated too!

Clinton Garrett Soule

Wise men truly know how little they know
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Tyler



Joined: 01 Jan 2013
Posts: 39
Location: USA

Posted: Thu Jan 10, 2013 2:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wow. Shocked

You would use the 10th Whole sign. The mc has connotations of fame rather than Mastery. Notice that in Christian Astrology book 3, and in older Natal Texts, Fame seems somewhat seperate then the mastery, and that the term MC is specifically mentioned when that subject is looked to? Personally I think they are two seperate things. One can have a prominent job but still be obscure and quadrant houses do not show this distinction.
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