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Boris Johnson
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Mjacob



Joined: 17 Nov 2011
Posts: 163

Posted: Sun Aug 12, 2012 7:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well if Boris does make to prime minister it will be interesting to see how long it lasts. Tom, you were wise to make clear his citizenship as we do not want to start an Obama-style Internet rumour that says he is ineligible to stand.

To be fair to him he has held down a job;in journalism. Something to fall back on if his political career does indeed go pear-shaped.

Regards to all

Matthew
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james_m



Joined: 05 Dec 2011
Posts: 1520
Location: vancouver island

Posted: Sun Aug 12, 2012 10:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

we disagree on carter... any falling has ultimately been replaced with rising, lol.

i am curious for ya'll to apply the same logic to rod stewart who has moon in scorp ruling over the 10th as well.. thanks -
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pankajdubey



Joined: 17 Nov 2006
Posts: 875
Location: Delhi

Posted: Mon Aug 13, 2012 5:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Look at his London relocated chart to see the honours.

10th lord mercury is in Gemini in an angle(7th).
10th house Virgo recieves a wide trine from Jupiter.

Sagittarius rises- Say no more about clowning,bumbling Boris Smile
He is a very clever man.

The natal chart would not go away but there was something in the natal that made him succeed in the relocated land.

PD
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###



Joined: 08 Jul 2004
Posts: 1381

Posted: Mon Aug 13, 2012 10:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

. . .

Last edited by ### on Wed Oct 24, 2012 12:31 am; edited 1 time in total
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Mjacob



Joined: 17 Nov 2011
Posts: 163

Posted: Mon Aug 13, 2012 12:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thank you PD and Kirk.

I can't add much on relocations but I would like to reply to Kirk.

Certainly the natal chart alone does not say everything. Lilly on eminence points out that a boy born a prince may have a similar nativity to a boy born born into beggary but only the former is likely to be a king. St Augustine mentions astro twins born in his town, one to a grandee and one to a slave and makes the same point. The author of Christian Astrology and the Christian author writing against astrology both come to the same conclusion.

Do people succeed solely by there own efforts and attitude? I recall a radio documentary on unemployment where a young jobseeker made an audio diary about her search for work. She did everthing she could and had a positive outlook and a cheerful voice as she called the agency every monday. After weeks of getting nowhere she ended up crying into the microphone saying she couldn't keep up the act anymore. They did not post her chart but I daresay that the previous mundane revolution would have told the story of recession.

In contrast I did see a traditional author distinguish between those who strive for success and those who have have it dropped in their lap.

I am not sure making it in this world is a reward for hard work or having the "right" mindset. Think of wicked rich people.

So Kirk while you are welcome to have an opinion on this ask youself is it an opinion based on traditional astrology. Remember which forum you are on.

Maybe some folk are just lucky.

Regards and best wishes

Matthew
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pankajdubey



Joined: 17 Nov 2006
Posts: 875
Location: Delhi

Posted: Mon Aug 13, 2012 1:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I am undecided if Kirk's question is more difficult or his answer Smile

MJacob, you could end up believing in relocation if you look at this video:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2012/aug/08/boris-johnson-prime-minister-prat

If that is not a sagittarian in London who else can be ?
Me in London on the London eye !! ??

PD
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Gem



Joined: 19 Nov 2004
Posts: 953

Posted: Mon Aug 13, 2012 1:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

james_m wrote:


i am curious for ya'll to apply the same logic to rod stewart who has moon in scorp ruling over the 10th as well.. thanks -


James,

As Rod Stewart's Moon is in the 2nd house, the same logic may not be applied:

http://www.astro.com/cgi/chart.cgi?wgid=wgeJwtjkELwjAUg3-NoBDhvbmhs_QoEwUPinh-o6Md0ipbR9m_twMvIYSQL6l_97pQ1mthFYx-xC7JEHH_GHgwgcF1WYH4yHs47mDFgHDurbMSO5xuzaqg9fO6ASWqUXHYlZjAB-JFCKTEtEF8p_No7v4RS2rygmbK4UXCJMOc3YJTbZy_-ZaPTktMyo2z3rIaRs2v5gdzfjVn
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james_m



Joined: 05 Dec 2011
Posts: 1520
Location: vancouver island

Posted: Mon Aug 13, 2012 4:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

hi pankajdubey

if you are going to go with a modern technique i would go with jupiter/pluto midpoint = midheaven, but i figured the thought police might get me if i mentioned that on the trad and ancient technique forum..

hi gem,

i was wondering if someone would point out that little loophole to make an exception to lord of 10th and in it's fall in scorpio.. thanks for pointing out the loophole in stewarts chart that doesn't apply to carters.. so, it now has to do with it being in the first, but not in the same sign as the ascendant? i am curious as to what the central thrust of the ancient wisdom/logic on this is.. thanks..

Tom wrote:

Lord 10 in the first, but not in the same sign as the ASC and in fall indicates whatever honors or recognition he achieves, it will be short lived.
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pankajdubey



Joined: 17 Nov 2006
Posts: 875
Location: Delhi

Posted: Mon Aug 13, 2012 4:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

james_m wrote:
hi pankajdubey

if you are going to go with a modern technique i would go with jupiter/pluto midpoint = midheaven, but i figured the thought police might get me if i mentioned that on the trad and ancient technique forum..


Beware !
Mind readers lurk here.
So even if you had not mentioned mid-point,you could have been found out Very Happy

I haven't used much midpoints in relocation or natal but I do like Pluto whether a planet or planetoid.I won't discuss it here because it does not exist.

You made me realize that this is actually a Traditional forum which I forgot.
I am not sure if relocation astrology with traditional planets is non-traditional.
If you can take Boris Johnson elsewhere, I will "relocate" my post there crying

PD
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Mjacob



Joined: 17 Nov 2011
Posts: 163

Posted: Mon Aug 13, 2012 6:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

James
Quote:
so, it now has to do with it being in the first, but not in the same sign as the ascendant? i am curious as to what the central thrust of the ancient wisdom/logic on this is.. thanks..


The logic seems to be this. A planet close to the cusp is normally considered stronger anyway but if it is not in the same sign but the next one it is succeedent and does not aspect the angle and is weaker. I am looking at Ben Dykes intro to his Works of Sahl and Masha'Allah. I will quote if if you like but he appears to be a logical kind of person.

BTW - no semi-sextiles allowed in trad.

I am sure Jean-Baptiste Morin says something on this too. He was not ancient but applied logic to the tradition.

As to the thought police you may be sailing close to the wind but room 101 has not been booked for you just yet!

Matthew
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###



Joined: 08 Jul 2004
Posts: 1381

Posted: Mon Aug 13, 2012 6:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

. . .

Last edited by ### on Wed Oct 24, 2012 12:31 am; edited 1 time in total
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james_m



Joined: 05 Dec 2011
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Location: vancouver island

Posted: Mon Aug 13, 2012 7:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

http://www.astro.com/astro-databank/Giulini,_Carlo_Maria
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Tom
Moderator


Joined: 11 Oct 2003
Posts: 3127
Location: New Jersey, USA

Posted: Mon Aug 13, 2012 8:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
i am curious as to what the central thrust of the ancient wisdom/logic on this is.. thanks..


Simplicity in itself first off you need to read what I wrote correctly rather than read into it. Secondly you have to understand that you're the one making a simple statement into an absolute. I'm not

Quote:
Lord 10 in the first, but not in the same sign as the ASC and in fall indicates whatever honors or recognition he achieves, it will be short lived.


The planet has two weaknesses that a planet otherwise would not have if placed in the first house. 1) It is in fall. That's a weakness that does not need to be explained. 2) It's not in the same sign as the ASC, that is also a weakness as the dispositor of the ASC is not the dispositor of the planet in question. If we used whole signs or if it were closer to the 2nd cusp it wouldn't be in the first house. How does a weak planet manifest? Uhhh weakly. So if Lord 10 in the first is INDICATION that honors come to the native, then a weak lord 10 in the 1st would manifest weakly. It's really not difficult.

Quote:
if you are going to go with a modern technique i would go with jupiter/pluto midpoint = midheaven, but i figured the thought police might get me if i mentioned that on the trad and ancient technique forum..


It is clear that you do not or cannot understand the purpose of this forum, which is clearly stated elsewhere, and you choose to be snarky instead of all out disruptive. That ends now. If I have to I'll delete every post you put up and lock every thread you start whether you are on topic or not. You don't like the way the Forum is run, well that's too bad. There is a forum for things like midpoints. Use it.


Last edited by Tom on Mon Aug 13, 2012 9:46 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Stellarium



Joined: 26 May 2010
Posts: 87

Posted: Mon Aug 13, 2012 9:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Using Valens eminence indicators, there's not much happening in this chart. But he already is quite eminent so how sure can we be of the time?

See here for an example: http://www.astrology-x-files.com/x-files/eminencegore.html

On his website in a section about the Delphic Oracle astrology program, Curtis Manwaring summarises it as follows:

"The trigon lords were the main "baseline" indicator of eminence in hellenistic astrology. By eminence, we mean how influential or important an individual will be in this world (not necessarily how famous).

[...]

Vettius Valens gave the trigon lords as being the primary consideration and the 4 lots (Fortune, Spirit, Exaltation and Basis) a secondary consideration, saying that "they appended these as confirming the testimony of the trigon lords, but not refuting them".

Valens gave other lot related aphorisms related to eminence. Of particular interest is the 10th sign from the lot of fortune for it represents the "height of fortune". He said that when the other lots hand over (the domicile lord of the lot being in said condition) to the 10th from fortune or in pivots of these, that it raises the esteem of the native (I am paraphrasing here). He also said that when the lords of thes lots hand over to each other, that it also adds to eminence."

http://www.astrology-x-files.com/help-do5/do3210.html

Now if Boris had his lot of Exaltation in Cancer (rather than early Leo), the that would have the ruler handing over to the 10th from Fortune which would be a big boost for eminence (although the "baseline" is weak with two of the three trigon lords declining (Whole Sign) and not much better considering the pivots relative to Fortune.)
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Tzadde



Joined: 07 Apr 2011
Posts: 137

Posted: Tue Aug 14, 2012 6:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Stellarium wrote:
Now if Boris had his lot of Exaltation in Cancer (rather than early Leo), the that would have the ruler handing over to the 10th from Fortune which would be a big boost for eminence (although the "baseline" is weak with two of the three trigon lords declining (Whole Sign) and not much better considering the pivots relative to Fortune.)

If he had Lot of Exaltation in Cancer, the Lady of the Lot would be in 6th from the Lot of Spirit, meaning the native would destroy his own social rising. With the Exaltation in Leo, we see that Sun is in the same place with the Spirit, so this is better, because the native himself can choose well, especially with the Lord of the Spirit in the same place.

Another way to look at it... With the Spirit in Gemini, we can see that Pisces is the 10th place, resided by Saturn, Lord of Fortune and Basis, in his decan. The Moon rules MC (which is conjunct Sirius) and applies to Saturn. The dismayed (Scorpio) voters (Moon) will vote him, because he seems a better option than other candidates.

So here we've got another two testimonies for his rise.
_________________
Amor ordinem nescit.
Love does not know order.
- Saint Jerome -
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