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The Sixth House
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Geoffrey



Joined: 09 Jul 2012
Posts: 345
Location: Scottish Borders

Posted: Sun Aug 26, 2012 4:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mjacob wrote:

Is this a reference to the idea that aries is the 1st house, taurus the 2nd &c?


I assume that Clinton was following that line. Planet and sign "cosignificators" are assigned to the houses by Lilly (and Coley and Partridge). The signs are assigned as you say. Saturn is given the the first house as it is the first planet, Jupiter to the second as it is the second planet and so on. Cosignificators of the 9th are Sagittarius and Jupiter.

Quote:
Are astrologers and slaves in the sixth house?


Yes, I am curious about the reference in this thread to slaves in the 6th. Bonatus (writing in the 13th century) does give the 6th to slaves. But Lilly only mentions galley-slaves for the 6th house and slaves generally seem to be considered as a 12th house matter. Coley and Partridge do not mention slaves at all in reference to the 6th.

As for astrologers signified in the 6th house, what true artist is not a slave to his art......? Wink

Quote:
Was there that much translation of Arab astrology in that period? There seems to be more today. Certainly enough for us to see the similarities between the two systems.Abu Ali al Khayyat was published in about 1583 I think and Lilly mentions Zahel but surely most people did not rate the Islamic contribution back then. Certainly not J B Morin for a start.

Matthew


"The Judgement of Nativities" by Abu Ali al Khayyat was translated into Latin by John of Seville in the 12th century and Joachim Heller produced a critical edition in Nurnberg in 1546. (See "A History of Horoscopic Astrology" by James H. Holden). As well as "Zael", there are many mentions of "Haly", or Ali Ibn abi al-Rijal by 17th century English authors, particularly in the aphorisms. A whole raft of Arabic astrological texts were translated in Venice and elsewhere quite early in the 16th century.

As for Morin, he was French and writing about French astrology. Need I say any more....?

Geoffrey
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Tzadde



Joined: 07 Apr 2011
Posts: 137

Posted: Sun Aug 26, 2012 5:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Astrology is signified by Mercury and 9th House. Not 6th...
Astrologers, in horary charts, are signified by 7th... Not 6th.
Astrologers as a whole are Mercurial and signified by 9th.

The Signs shows qualities, while the Houses shows the topics, the subjects they signify... So it is not the same thing.
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Geoffrey



Joined: 09 Jul 2012
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Location: Scottish Borders

Posted: Sun Aug 26, 2012 9:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tzadde wrote:
Astrology is signified by Mercury and 9th House. Not 6th...
Astrologers, in horary charts, are signified by 7th... Not 6th.
Astrologers as a whole are Mercurial and signified by 9th.


Well, thanks for that. I was of course joking about the 6th for astrologers, as I think was reasonably obvious.... But just to tweak your tail I cite Lilly giving Virgo to astrologers (CA 451) and Virgo as the cosignificator of the 6th house (CA 54) so some small justification for giving astrologers to the 6th house.Wink

Geoffrey
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###



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Posted: Sun Aug 26, 2012 9:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

. . .

Last edited by ### on Wed Oct 24, 2012 12:27 am; edited 1 time in total
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###



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Posted: Sun Aug 26, 2012 10:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

. . .

Last edited by ### on Wed Oct 24, 2012 12:28 am; edited 1 time in total
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Geoffrey



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Posted: Mon Aug 27, 2012 1:26 pm    Post subject: Slaves and captivity in the 6th Reply with quote

I have been thinking more about the assigning of slavery and captivity to the 6th house, which seems to have been accepted in this thread as a principle of the 6th house.

As I commented previously, earlier 'Mediterranean' authors such as Ptolemy (2nd century), Al Biruni (11th century) and Bonatus (13th century) did give captivity and slavery to the 6th house. It is tempting to 'tick the boxes' and say that if these early authors give slavery and captivity to the 6th, that must be the principle of the 6th house. But when we come to the 17th century English authors, I think it is clear that captivity and slavery are now 12th house concerns, while 'servants of what quality soever' (Partridge) are given to the 6th house. I propose (and will here try to briefly justify) that this represents a shift in the perception and meaning of what it was to be a slave in the Mediterranean states prior to and during the Middle ages, compared to early Enlightenment Northern Europe. Too, the word 'servant' carries with it meanings and connotations to a 17th century audience that are not appreciated today.

At the time Ptolemy was writing, slavery was a necessary and vital component of economy of the Roman Empire. It is estimated that around a 6th of the entire population of the empire were slaves in Ptolemy's time. Being a slave in those days defined what and who you were, it was like being born into the working class in the UK or like being a member of 'untouchable' cast in India. It was not a condition imposed upon you, it was the natural order of things - if you were born a slave, you (generally) remained a slave until the end of your days. Being born a slave was unfortunate, bad luck, but that is just the way things were and slavery was accepted as part of the culture and fabric of society. Slavery was thus associate with the 6th house of 'bad luck'. Too, servants as we understand the term today, and even as the term was understood in 17th century England, did not exist in the 2nd century Roman Empire. Servants were slaves, the terms were interchangable.

After the fall of the Roman Empire, slavery continued to be a necessary part of the culture in the Mediterranean states and in Europe. In England in 1086, the Doomsday book shows that around 10% of the population were slaves. But by now there was a sea-change in opinion building that slavery was essentially un-Christian. It is worth quoting Archbishop Anselm, who convened the Council of London in 1102, after which he issued the decree, "Let no one hereafter presume to engage in that nefarious trade in which hitherto in England men were usually sold like brute animals." The 12th house comparision here is telling!

By the Middle ages in Northern Europe, slavery in the Classical sense had largely died out. There were still forms of un-free labour such as villeinage and serfdom, but these gradually became diluted and by the time we get to 17th century England, we have 'indentured servants' whereby a person could be legally bound to act as the servant of another, usually for a fixed period of time. The difference between this and slavery was that the servant (notionally at least) entered the legal contract willingly and of his own free will. What both servant and master got out of the deal was security. The master got a servant who could not leave and to whom he would only have to pay a minimal wage, the servant was guaranteed a roof over his head and food to eat in return for a promise not to move on to a better job for a certain period of time.

This principle of indentured servitude continued right up until modern times in the UK in the form of apprenticeships. A boy would be legally bound to act as the servant of a master craftsman for five or seven years, in return for which he was taught the craft and he himself became a master craftsman with the earning capacity that went with it. Another way in which indentured servitude continued here in Scotland until only a few decades ago was the "Shepherd's day" market. Once a year, all the shepherds and other farm workers would gather at a fair and would agree to hire out their labour to a land owner for the next year. (I carefully do not use the word 'farmer', as I think this term is not used by Lilly in the way we use it today.) Land owners benefitted in that they could adjust their workforce to maximise the profitablity of their farm, farm workers had a formalised mechanism whereby they could better their terms and conditions once a year. I wonder if this form of indentured employment was implied when Lilly (and others) give shepherds, hogheards, neatheards (cowhands) and warriners (forest wardens) - and 'farmers' - to the 6th?

In chapter 48, during a discussion of the significance of the 6th house, Lilly considers, "If a servant shall get free from his master?" I think what Lilly is considering here is if an indentured servant can get out of the legal contract that binds him to work for a master. This is despite the general question Lilly poses further down the page, "Shall I be freed from the service of slavery of this man my master..." Here, I think the term slavery is used much as we might use the term 'slave driver' for our boss at work today. It does not mean that the quesitor is actually a slave.

It should be mentioned here that while slavery in the Classical sense - meaning it was accepted part of the culture - did not exist in England in the 17th century and was considered improper, if not actually illegal, this did not stop England being the largest slave trading nation in the world at this time. The difference was that the slaves were African blacks, and so not the 'fellow man' of the merchants who profited hugely by this trade, and the slaves never set foot in England. They were captured in Africa and sold into the Carribean. The trade was thus remote and could be passed off as just a business like trading in any other commodity.

The important point is that slavery was by now considered as a condition of enforced servitude, as we consider it today, rather than a condition of life as it was considered in Mediterranean states before the Middle ages. Slavery was no longer just 'bad luck', the luck of the draw concerning the circumstances of your birth. It was a violation of the liberty of an otherwise free man, against his will. This, I propose, is reflected in the shift of slavery from a 6th house concern to a 12th house concern by 17th century English astrology writers.

Indentured servitude, however, was considered to be unfortunate and 'bad luck' in the 17th century, rather like being 'on the dole' in the UK today. It was through no fault of your own that you had to seek indentured servitude. The job market had nothing like the fluidity we are accustomed to today. So this is why 'servants of what quality soever' were assigned to the 6th.

Geoffrey
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Clinton Soule



Joined: 14 Sep 2008
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Location: Reno, Nevada

Posted: Mon Aug 27, 2012 9:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Geoffrey said:

Quote:
So, astrologers are represented by Jupiter? And Jupiter = prejudiced opinions...? Hmm. Leonard Nimoy might well agree. When ill dignified, Jupiter gives persons who are "Mountebanks, Hypocrites, Cheats, Athiests and broken parsons..." (Partridge); "Weak in judgement" (Coley); "Hypocritically Religious" (Lilly); characteristics which are commonly expressed in regard to astrologers.


Geoffrey, if, did he say if, you study Lilly's CA you will note the Lilly places Astrology like Churches or various religions within the 9th, or as a 9th House matter. In that Astrology like Science, Philosophy, Hinduism, Islam, Judaism, Christianity, Confusionism, etc., all are 9th house matters.

The reason I presented this website is that many in Christiandom are mislead or ignorant to astrology within their sacred scriptures. Just as many astrologers are very ignorant or Jupiter/Sag-like bigoted, against religious scriptures in a parralell correlation as Jupiter as Sag ruler is many times bigots against certain things out of orthodoxy values just as Virgo is very discriminating; these are generalitys.

Note how many astrologers are ignorant of facts within this youtube:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VwyaF8WkZm4

There are many 'Contemporary Traditional Horary artists' whom do Not use Outers for any reason even if they were born after 1800 when true Traditionalists existed.

Clinton Garrett Soule

Wise men know how little they know
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Geoffrey



Joined: 09 Jul 2012
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Location: Scottish Borders

Posted: Tue Aug 28, 2012 5:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Clinton Soule wrote:

Geoffrey, if, did he say if, you study Lilly's CA you will note the Lilly places Astrology like Churches or various religions within the 9th, or as a 9th House matter.


Oh dear! I have already stated that my assignation of astrology to the 6th was a joke and I think the joke was pretty obvious. You are now the third person to correct my straying error, but I think my real error was to assume a reasonable sense of humour on this list. I will try not to err again.

Geoffrey
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###



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Posted: Tue Aug 28, 2012 7:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

. . .

Last edited by ### on Wed Oct 24, 2012 12:28 am; edited 1 time in total
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Geoffrey



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Posted: Tue Aug 28, 2012 8:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kirk wrote:


For me it was a matter of pointing out that your "small justification" for giving astrologers to the 6th was, in fact, no justification.


And I would agree with you.... which is why I put the wink at the end....

(Sigh!)

Geoffrey
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###



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Posted: Tue Aug 28, 2012 7:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

. . .

Last edited by ### on Wed Oct 24, 2012 12:28 am; edited 1 time in total
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Clinton Soule



Joined: 14 Sep 2008
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Location: Reno, Nevada

Posted: Tue Aug 28, 2012 7:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Geoffrey said:

Quote:
Oh dear! I have already stated that my assignation of astrology to the 6th was a joke and I think the joke was pretty obvious. You are now the third person to correct my straying error, but I think my real error was to assume a reasonable sense of humour on this list. I will try not to err again.


Nonsense, we need jokes to remind us to think and Not become so Saturnized that we can't think outside of the box. Geoffrey, No I didn't see it as sarcasm then, or a joking pun. I saw it more as 'Oh No, here we go again...choosing another house for traditionaly accepted matters!'

It's good you kept us on our toes, and I and others fell for it. I mean should a teacher test their student's knowledge and refine their skills once in a while?

But you did hit something there as Lilly could put an astrologer in the 6th as if:

1) If one were a slave astrologer under a king in ancient times. That is a servant in slave fashion as in:

According to the modern day Prophet Hal Lindsey, the prophet Daniel taught astrology to Nebuchadnezzer's astrologers during the Babylonian exile of Israel while Daniel was a Hebrew slave under King Nebuchadnezzar's reign.

If horary was being practiced at that time and the King had asked a query about Daniel his slave or any of his native astrologers as they were his servants, the 6th house would in fact represent one's servants or slaves in this case.

See CAIII, page 586 under 6th houses questions where Lilly writes of servants:

http://www.skyscript.co.uk/texts.html

http://www.worldastrology.net/wp-content/uploads/2008/12/CA-III.pdf

2) So if you are an independent astrologer or under servitude whether a slave like the Hebrew prophet Daniel or employed by some astrologer for your astro services it's a tenth house matter if one is asking about their own employment or work.

3)If you own your own astrology service and employ other astrologers and ask a query about the astrologers in your hire it's a 6th house matter as they are your servants. Same if you were a King or in a country that presently allows slavery and you owned knowledgeble astrological slaves it is then the sixth because you are asking about your servants.

Clinton Garrett Soule

Wise men know how little they know
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