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Book III of Carmen Astrologicum by Dorotheus
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The Sixth House
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LeeRutland



Joined: 20 May 2010
Posts: 27

Posted: Wed Aug 01, 2012 3:37 pm    Post subject: The Sixth House Reply with quote

Generally I follow the traditional lines with the 6th House, illness, small animals and whatnot, but in reading Lee Lehmans rationale of it, perhaps we should consider some changes.

Now, traditionally it was associated with slavery, which we have outlawed, but in considering what most people do for a living, which in many cases isn't really a "vocation" or a "career", their JOB is just a means of survival, not something they want to do, and is, in a sense......a form of slavery.

Plus, our attitudes towards work have changed a good bit, and it is considered today a virture, rather than something to be avoided.

The point of this is to ask, "will we need to change how we delineate Horary questions, making a difference between what could be called a career, and that which we do, which many people do, just to survive"?
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Geoffrey



Joined: 09 Jul 2012
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Posted: Wed Aug 01, 2012 6:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I would agree completely. The 10th is for those held in esteem in the world by virtue of their profession or their power. So kings, ministers of the crown, magistrates, judges, architects, the boss in any business, etc. I would say doctors and nurses too due to the high esteem by which they are held - certainly in the UK.

Lawyers seem to be given to the 9th by modern authors - which is a strange bed-fellow for monks and priests - though Lilly, Coley etc. put lawyers in the 10th. Perhaps, as Olivia Barclay wryly observed, the role of lawyers has evolved over the past 400 years.

In the days of long apprenticeships where those who practised a trade were 'time served' and highly skilled - with a high earning power in consequence, such people were held in esteem by virtue of their trade and so were 10th house. But today a "tradesman" is almost a term of derision and so plumbers, carpenters, bricklayers, secretaries and others who have a 'trade' probably belong in the 6th along with diggers of ditches!

If you have a "job" where you serve your time between 9 and 5 so that you can eat, sleep in the dry and go on holiday once a year, that is like a prison sentence. Not for nothing did Coley give the 6th to prisons, (as well as the 4th and the 12th).

Geoffrey
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Clinton Soule



Joined: 14 Sep 2008
Posts: 471
Location: Reno, Nevada

Posted: Wed Aug 01, 2012 8:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Geoffrey, LeeRutland, and benevolent Forum members,

I have looked at the 6th house relationship in a previous post:

'Will they earn at least the large amount?'

It you Do Not enlarge this chart or calculate another from this webpage it seems to stay there:

http://www.astro.com/cgi/chart.cgi?;lang=e;gm=a1;nho2=;btyp=2;mth=gr;sday=5;smon=2;syr=2012;hsy=5;zod=;orbp=;rs=2;add=18;node=-Yn;pfday=-YP%201;fix=1;ast=&nhor=1&cid=z8kfilenKtqmj-u1328475892

LeeRutland says;

Quote:
Now, traditionally it was associated with slavery, which we have outlawed, but in considering what most people do for a living, which in many cases isn't really a "vocation" or a "career", their JOB is just a means of survival, not something they want to do, and is, in a sense......a form of slavery.


Maybe in the USA, England, and Europe slavery is Not legal, but there are some nations in the Carribean and I think India still have legal slaves. However the reason I bring this up is where slavery was a forced institution in much of history and those remaining nations that allow the practice, in the USA many say 'You have Freedom, in that you can be a slave and choose the Master that you would like to hire you for your servitude.'

So in principle if we stick to our guns, and don't drift off course as Lilly in CA states the 10th is our career, position sought, our work, and when Lilly refers to servants or slaves in the sixth, isn't it more like co-workers?

The chart above of 'Will they earn at least the large amount?' is dealing with the querant, Mercury, in the 6th, the clerical office of his workplace, or with fellow employees and the work within that office was clearly secretarial in nature; so it fit's the querant's shared relationship with fellow employees, or somewhat slaves of the corporation he was employed by. But Lilly's 'Five degree Rule' I'll have to question here as Lilly states '...that the vertue of the planet on the cusp, within five degrees is given to that house'. I question this because of the actual presence of the querant in this office and with fellow employees present, or in Prior to Lilly's time, Slaves.

The problems you are facing here is the Danger of creating horary heresy or more like Traditionalist Blasphemy as in deviations like John Gadbury, in 'The Docrtine of Horary Questions', as he went against the flow and vanguard of Tradition and put money made from gambling of the player, not casino owner, under the 5th. Where Lilly uses the 2nd in CAII. Or where Gadbury again places romances under the 5th for affairs and contradicts Lilly's usage of Romantic relationships as always under the 7th for the matter. These deviations are Traditionally heredical by even 'Contemporary Traditionalist' whom have practiced after 1800 and presently.

Geoffrey stated:

Quote:
In the days of long apprenticeships where those who practised a trade were 'time served' and highly skilled - with a high earning power in consequence, such people were held in esteem by virtue of their trade and so were 10th house. But today a "tradesman" is almost a term of derision and so plumbers, carpenters, bricklayers, secretaries and others who have a 'trade' probably belong in the 6th along with diggers of ditches!


Geoffrey, if you put this within books or a horary course you have done the same thing Gadbury did with the prior methods just mentioned. Many of us frequently misunderstand the Ancients and are puzzled by Lilly, as Lilly misunderstood Ptolemey's Table of Essential Dignitys and Debilities and devout students since have caught and cited his error.

See we live in a time unlike Lilly and many before where we have Forums to aid us in our studious pursuits of horary. Lilly and the Ancients would no doubt have loved to correspond with other artists at his fingertips via a computer but distance and mail was such a hardship in their times.

Where in CA or authors prior to Lilly can you show documentation of this or is it just a wild tangent like so many Modernes who tried yet were confused upon what prior writers of renown were actually saying?

Clinton Garrett Soule

Wise Men Truly Know How Little They Know

http://www.newsreview.com/reno/star-reader/content?oid=22904
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LeeRutland



Joined: 20 May 2010
Posts: 27

Posted: Wed Aug 01, 2012 9:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

To be honest, I'm just toying with the idea, and playing with it whenever I do a chart that lends itself to a 10th or 6th possibility.
I haven't made up my mind on it, and frankly, the 10th house is holding up pretty well.
But I am open to experimentation, and wanted to throw the idea out to others for feedback.
So far, I have no results that look impressive, and I certainly wouldn't look to change things without something I could verify.
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Geoffrey



Joined: 09 Jul 2012
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Location: Scottish Borders

Posted: Thu Aug 02, 2012 6:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Clinton Soule wrote:


So in principle if we stick to our guns, and don't drift off course as Lilly in CA states the 10th is our career, position sought, our work, and when Lilly refers to servants or slaves in the sixth, isn't it more like co-workers?


Quote:
Where in CA or authors prior to Lilly can you show documentation of this or is it just a wild tangent like so many Modernes who tried yet were confused upon what prior writers of renown were actually saying?


Ok, let me put this back and ask, where does Lilly ever refer to 'work' in reference to the 10th house? Lilly was interpreting the meanings of the houses in the context of his culture and his time - now nearly 400 years ago.

Referring to modern authors as heretics for straying from the royal road set down by Lilly is kind of funny. Heretics rarely wish to upset the status quo in order to re-launch a religion in a totally new direction. They usually want to take a religion back to its roots and do away with all the dogma (as they see it) which has obscured the true message.

I would respectfully submit that we should learn the meaning and essence of houses which Lilly was trying to convey and become true artists, rather than adhere slavishly and without thought to the letter of his text.

"I would have the Student very perfect in knowing the nature of the Houses, that he may better discover from what house to require judgement upon the question propounded, lest for the want of true understanding he mistake one thing for another."

Geoffrey
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Clinton Soule



Joined: 14 Sep 2008
Posts: 471
Location: Reno, Nevada

Posted: Thu Aug 02, 2012 11:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sir Geoffry,

In this time presently while Hermes is running backwards know that I Do Not wish to stir up any contention of an emotional level as both yourself and LeeRutland have brought up some good points here that many have possibly failed to note in their scared horary studies.

Geoffrey stated:

"Ok, let me put this back and ask, where does Lilly ever refer to 'work' in reference to the 10th house? Lilly was interpreting the meanings of the houses in the context of his culture and his time - now nearly 400 years ago. "

Well my dear astro sibling and he that asks a worthy question, do you notice from:

http://www.skyscript.co.uk/texts.html

Lilly, William Christian Astrology, vols I & II 1647 Mithras93

Lilly's Table of Contents in CAIII:

Quote:

Of the Tenth House.

615.......Of the Honour or Dignity of the Native. Whether the Native shall have
Preferment or not.
617.......Rules from the two Luminaries.
618.......Aphorismes from the Sun.
619.......Concerning the Moon. Of the Midheaven.
620.......Of the Ascendant.
Of the Fixed Stars.
621.......What manner of Preferment, its quality.
622.......If the Dignity or Honour shall continue.
623.......Special Aphorismes concerning that judgment.
624.......Of the Profession of the Native.
626.......Experimented Aphorismes concerning the Natives Profession.


Page #

627.......Of Mercury when Lord of the Profession. When joyned with others.
628.......Of Venus when alone signifies the Profession. When mixed with others.
629.......Of Mars when significator of the Profession.
When mixed with others.
630.......Of Mercury and Venus when commixed. Of Venus with Mars.
631.......Of Mars and Venus when Significators of Art.
With what successe the Native shall handle it.
633.......Quality of the Profession.



Note that Lilly on pages 615, 621, 622, 624, 626, 627, 628, 629, and 633, all of these lessons by Lilly deal with one's work or profession.

While only one's servants or slaves are mentioned in the Sixth house matters. And one's fellow employees may be included as slaves, servants are mentioned by Lilly under this house as property like small cattle or pets.

Note the 6th house matters have Not anything about one's profession or work/occupation under Lilly's Sixth house matters:

Quote:
Of. the Sixth House, viz. of Infirmities.

576.......Of the infirmities of Bodies.
577.......Aphorismes useful for this house.
578.......Kinds and qualities of Diseases, how discoverable from the Planets and Signes.
581.......Of weaknesse In the Sight, or casualties portended to the eyes.
582.......Defects in the Eyes.
Impediments in the Tongue.
583.......Of the Tooth-ach.
Of the falling Sicknesse.
584.......Of the Stone.
585.......Of the Gout.
Of violent Falls.
Whether the Diseases of the Native are curable or not.
586.......Of Servants and small Cattle.


Geoffrey note in CaII that Lilly clearly emphasized the Tenth as one's work or occupation whether as a King, Govenor, Mayor, Trade, or Profession:

From CAII

Quote:
Of the Tenth House. viz. of Government. Dignitv,
Office, Command.

444.......If the Querent shall obtain the Office desired or not.
447.......If one shall continue in the Command or Office he is In.
448.......Whether a King expulsed his Kingdom, or an Officer removed from his Office,
shall return to the Kingdom or Office, or not.
450.......Of the Profession or Trade any one is capable of.
452.......If Prince Rupert should get honour by our wars, a figure thereof.
453.......If he should worst the E. of Essex.
454......What should become of him.

Page #

445.......If his Majesty should procure Forces out of Ireland to harm the Parliment, a
figure thereupon, and judgment delivered.
If the Queen then in the North, would advance with her Army; if she would
prosper; when she and his Majesty would meet.
456.......If attain the Preferment desired.


While again nothing pertains to one's profession or career in Lilly's Sixth house matters as in:

Quote:
Of the Sixth House, and its Questions, viz. of Sickness.
Servants, small Cattle.

243.......Judgment of sickness by Astrologie. What part of the body afflicted.
244.......From what cause the sickness is.
245.......Diseases signified by the Houses.
Diseases signified by the Signs.
246.......Diseases of the Planets.
247.......Whether the disease will be long or short.
248.......Signes of a long or short sickness.
253.......Testimonies that the Querent shall live and not dye of the Infirmity now afflicting.
255....... Arguments of death.
258. .......D riot abridged.
259.......If the party be sick of whom the question is demanded. Cause of the
Disease, inward or outward.
261 .......Of the quality and nature of the Disease.
263 .......Whether the Disease be in the right or left side.
264.......Whether the Disease be In the body, minde, or both.
266.......Of the Crysis, or dayes criticall.
267.......How long ere the sick recover.
268.......Hermes Trimegistus upon the Decumbiture of the Sick.
273-218...Of the Signs and conjectures of the Disease, and of
life and death by the good or ill disposition of the
MOON at the time of the Patients first lying down.
282.......Astrologlcall Aphorismes judging of sickness.
286.......A Figure of a sick Doctor, if curable.
289.......A Figure set to know whether the sick would live or
dye.
290.......Of the Crysis in Diseases.
294....... A Table shewing how to set a figure in sickness of
sixteen sides.
296....... If a Servant shall get free from his Master.


Only Servants has any relationship to work as on page 296, and one could say under our present times that one's employees are definitely one's servants. But Definitely Not one's occupation or work but one's workers whether slaves or hired servants. Geoffrey you have that point of servants being in that house.

Someone could correct me upon this as I haven't researched the impact of the Revolution that Lilly took part in in England but I believe that Slavery was outlawed in England when Lilly wrote CA and Servants of the 6th must have been employees as only in the British colonies under England's rule was slavery legal at that time as far as the British Empire was concerned although like presently slavery was legal in many parts of the planet as it still is today.

Clinton Garrett Soule

Wise Men truly know how little they know
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epurdue



Joined: 14 Nov 2007
Posts: 327

Posted: Fri Aug 03, 2012 3:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Remember that with the 6th ruling slaves, that this means YOUR slaves, not you being in the condition of slavery.

Thus, the 6th cannot rule your job - even if you're a servant. The 6th for slavery or servitude refers to other people not you.
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Paul
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Posted: Fri Aug 03, 2012 2:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

My understanding of the 6th is that it is a place of drudgery and captivity. No job today, no matter how menial or how unwanted is a place of captivity. Both the 12th and 6th pertain to these things and when it comes to those who do work for us, who perform this service for us that we ourselves do not want to do or are not able to do we assign them the 6th.

In modern parlance this relates to those who work for us, particularly maids, servants, porters, mechanics, butlers, plumbers and labourers.

Now those who have had their minds broadened, where this relates to the horary, take the 9th house. This includes but is not limited to doctors, lawyers and priests.

No matter your situation, no matter how 'lowly' your job, if it is the thing that is your job or career then the 10th describes it. When you ask after your job as a maid, labourer and plumber, that is your 10th house. To your employer you are 6th house but from your perspective that job is 10th house.
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Paul
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Posted: Fri Aug 03, 2012 2:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Clinton Soule wrote:

Someone could correct me upon this as I haven't researched the impact of the Revolution that Lilly took part in in England but I believe that Slavery was outlawed in England when Lilly wrote CA and Servants of the 6th must have been employees as only in the British colonies under England's rule was slavery legal at that time as far as the British Empire was concerned although like presently slavery was legal in many parts of the planet as it still is today.


Not quite legally abolished but all but culturally abolished. In practical terms it was abolished even if not legally.
By the end of the 11th century middle of the 20th century slavery was pretty much replaced by serfdom, where people owed to the Lord but were otherwise free people.
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LeeRutland



Joined: 20 May 2010
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Posted: Fri Aug 03, 2012 2:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, I will have to say, in all fairness, that so far my attempts to use the 6th house with work of any sort have not panned out.
Every attempt to convert the 6th hous as ""job" or "workplace" he met with no success whatsoever.
So far, the 10th house as one's profession is holding up quite well.
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Clinton Soule



Joined: 14 Sep 2008
Posts: 471
Location: Reno, Nevada

Posted: Fri Aug 03, 2012 8:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mithra6 stated:

Quote:
Remember that with the 6th ruling slaves, that this means YOUR slaves, not you being in the condition of slavery.

Thus, the 6th cannot rule your job - even if you're a servant. The 6th for slavery or servitude refers to other people not you.


Mithra6, that is my understanding in studying Lilly, as he mentions servants in his Sixth House Matters. However if I understand Lilly correctly it is both slaves or servants which includes one's employees. As most of us realize from studying CA, that Lilly emphasizes slave related horarys more in the 7th because they are considered runaways like lost or stolen objects.

Lilly says:

http://www.skyscript.co.uk/texts.html

http://mithras93.tripod.com/books/books.html

Under:

JUDGMENTS CONCERNING THE 2ND HOUSE.

CHAPTER XXVII.

Page 170

Quote:
If the Lord of the 6th, or Significator, or assistant Planet be in the 6th, and the Signe of the 6th be humane, the Querent may expect good Servants, and profit by their labours: If a King or Prince propounds the Question (as sometimes they doe) you may judge, his Subjects will assist him with many tumbling Subsidies, Privy-Seales, Loans of Money, etc..


My point is even under the house of substance Lilly says that money earned because of one's servants work, implying the 6th house relationship of one's employees, slaves or endendured.

Paul stated:

Quote:
My understanding of the 6th is that it is a place of drudgery and captivity. No job today, no matter how menial or how unwanted is a place of captivity. Both the 12th and 6th pertain to these things and when it comes to those who do work for us, who perform this service for us that we ourselves do not want to do or are not able to do we assign them the 6th.


Well within the USA prison system, which as you point out is the 12th, as Lilly confirms, jobs are definitely slaves to the state or Federal system of the USA.

But I just wonder if we can call co-workers, that is said to be a Moderne derivative 6th house as they are colleagues in a sense, fellow servants, or slaves. Or would we place fellow employees in the 7th of the 10H?

Clinton Garrett Soule

Wise men truly know how little they know

http://www.newsreview.com/reno/star-reader/content?oid=22904
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Yuriy



Joined: 03 Jan 2006
Posts: 360

Posted: Sat Aug 04, 2012 2:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Following Mars transits through my chart I've noticed strong connection of work load (I'm self-employed designer) to Mars transiting 6th house.
That's in relation to AC or to my Sun (main luminary).
With Libra AC when Mars was in 6th and Aries I had plenty of work after some slow period.
Suddenly now when Mars is in Libra but still in my 12th I'm overwhelmed with work. And it's becoming understandable if counting whole sign as a house from Sun sign - Sun in Taurus and Libra is 6th sign from Taurus.
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Clinton Soule



Joined: 14 Sep 2008
Posts: 471
Location: Reno, Nevada

Posted: Sat Aug 25, 2012 9:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Geoffrey says:

Quote:
Referring to modern authors as heretics for straying from the royal road set down by Lilly is kind of funny. Heretics rarely wish to upset the status quo in order to re-launch a religion in a totally new direction. They usually want to take a religion back to its roots and do away with all the dogma (as they see it) which has obscured the true message.


Geoffrey, as Lilly listed astrology in the ninth house, and we all have our Jupiterian prejudiced oppinions, and the vanguard, the Ultra-Trads, whom some Do Not even allow the study of Outers whether in natal, transits, progressions and directions, much less in Horary, this may shock a few few from an old television series:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VwyaF8WkZm4

In Search of...by Leonard Nimoy Season 2, episode 5

Yep, astrology predates most of the Earth's formal organized religions.


Clinton Garrett Soule

Wise men truly know how little they know

http://www.newsreview.com/reno/star-reader/content?oid=22904
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Geoffrey



Joined: 09 Jul 2012
Posts: 377
Location: Scottish Borders

Posted: Sun Aug 26, 2012 8:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Clinton Soule wrote:
Lilly listed astrology in the ninth house, and we all have our Jupiterian prejudiced oppinions


So, astrologers are represented by Jupiter? And Jupiter = prejudiced opinions...? Hmm. Leonard Nimoy might well agree. When ill dignified, Jupiter gives persons who are "Mountebanks, Hypocrites, Cheats, Athiests and broken parsons..." (Partridge); "Weak in judgement" (Coley); "Hypocritically Religious" (Lilly); characteristics which are commonly expressed in regard to astrologers.

In 'Moderne' times, astrologers have been given Pisces, ruled by Jupiter (but perhaps with Neptune more in mind), because astrologers are spiritual people, as we all know. Interestingly, Barbara Watters found Jupiter to be prominent in the charts of astrologers, but more associated with Sagittarius than Pisces.

In my experience, good astrologers usually have strong analytical-critical Virgos, but that is probably just the circles in which I move. And giving Virgo and Mercury to astrologers would take us to the 6th house, so bringing us neatly back on topic. Sixth house for astrologers, anyone?

Quote:
Yep, astrology predates most of the Earth's formal organized religions.


Well, this is a bald statement and I think it is more complicated than that. Astrology has evolved over the ages, as have religions, so which 'astrology' are we talking about here? And which version of the Great Religions?

The Babylonians were associating the movements of the planets with events on earth as far back as 3000 BCE, but the Zodiac with its 12 equal signs dates from around 400 BCE and astrology as we know it starts from around this era, emerging pretty much fully formed by the first century AD. But would Ptolemy recognise the psycho-astrology as developed by Alan Leo around the start of the 20th century and which became what is main stream astrology today?

Bhudda Guatama lived around 500 BCE so pre-dated astrology as-we-know-it, but I doubt he would recognise the Buddism as now practiced in Tibet and which is generally recognised as main stream Bhuddism these days.

And we know when Christianity started, and that is definitely newer than astrology right? But there is a good argument that Christianity is just a fusion of Old Testement Jewish faith and Mithraism, so making Christianity an evolution of faiths that date back 1500 BCE.

The origins of Hinduism, on the other hand, can be dated back to 5000 BCE at least, so certainly pre-dates any records of anything that we might recognise as astrology. But Hinduism underwent seismic changes in the middle ages and again around 1800, so modern Hinduism is not much older than 'Moderne' astrology.

As for Islamism, the great revival of astrology in the 16/17th century took place because of the translation of Islamic (Arab) astrology texts into Latin, which were then rapidly disseminated in printed books. It is difficult now to un-pick how much of the detail of astrology as-we-know-it is from the now-lost Greek manuscripts which the Arabs read and copied, and how much is 'interpretation' from the Arab astrologers themselves.

Geoffrey
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Mjacob



Joined: 17 Nov 2011
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Posted: Sun Aug 26, 2012 1:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Geoffrey wrote
Quote:
In my experience, good astrologers usually have strong analytical-critical Virgos, but that is probably just the circles in which I move. And giving Virgo and Mercury to astrologers would take us to the 6th house, so bringing us neatly back on topic. Sixth house for astrologers, anyone?


Is this a reference to the idea that aries is the 1st house, taurus the 2nd &c? I have heard that this scheme is taught in some schools nowadays but I do not think that it helps us in this context. Are astrologers and slaves in the sixth house? If anyone wants to update the house of slavery for the C21st century then how about interns who work for nothing and are sacked after a year? Or the unemployed young lady made to do menial work in a poundstore under the threat of having her benefit money taken away? Surely the shop manager who is not paying her any money would regard her as a slave and that is how she would be signified in a horary.






Quote:

As for Islamism, the great revival of astrology in the 16/17th century took place because of the translation of Islamic (Arab) astrology texts into Latin, which were then rapidly disseminated in printed books. It is difficult now to un-pick how much of the detail of astrology as-we-know-it is from the now-lost Greek manuscripts which the Arabs read and copied, and how much is 'interpretation' from the Arab astrologers themselves.

Was there that much translation of Arab astrology in that period? There seems to be more today. Certainly enough for us to see the similarities between the two systems.Abu Ali al Khayyat was published in about 1583 I think and Lilly mentions Zahel but surely most people did not rate the Islamic contribution back then. Certainly not J B Morin for a start.

Matthew
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