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Michaelb
Joined: 21 Apr 2011 Posts: 67

Posted: Sat Jul 14, 2012 8:20 am Post subject: Pds converting arc to include Hr Mn Se. 


Hi
Beginner questions. How to convert Primary Directed arc, degrees minutes seconds to years month days plus (hour minute secconds) clock time pref. GMT.
Example chart. U.S. Sibley as per Dave the Bookstore man at this link:
http://www.astroamerica.com/mundane.html
Gives 6Sg48 Asc. Same chart calculated on Astro.com list Universal time at 21:43:40 Date July 4 1776 Philly 75w10 39n57
As you know, Astro.com lists PDs for any chart. For chart above U.S. Sibley, the most recent major aspect for Asc is
Asc sxt Mars 13 Dec. 2006 arc of direction, no latitude, 227 07 59 Degree Minutes Seconds.
For MC is
MC sxt Sun 15 June 2006 arc with no latitude, 226 38 43.
Does anyone have know how and time to post formulae to include hour minute and seconds clock time GMT for either aspect date above?
From A.Com PD page: Key: Naibod, 0°59'08.33" AR = 1 year, direct, prom. without latitude Significators: AC, MC, planets; promissors: AC, MC, houses, planets
Many Thanks
Michaelb 

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Martin Gansten Moderator
Joined: 05 Jul 2008 Posts: 1152 Location: Malmö, Sweden

Posted: Sat Jul 14, 2012 9:36 am Post subject: Re: Pds converting arc to include Hr Mn Se. 


Calculating not only the exact day but even the exact time of day when a primary direction is believed to perfect is utterly unnecessary  and I might add, as as we are on the Traditional forum, untraditional. It also presupposes a ridiculous level of exactness in the time of birth: getting even the day of a primary direction 'hit' to the angles right requires, on average, a birth time known to a fraction of a second! As there are 24 hours = 1440 minutes = 86400 seconds in a day, timing a primary direction to the second would mean knowing the time of birth to the picosecond. That's not how astrology works.
The traditional use of primary directions is to identify a particular year in which one or more events corresponding to the nature of the direction would take place. That's it. For more detailed work, we have profections, revolutions, transits, etc.
Whichever key you use, an arc of direction of 227 degrees would convert into at least twice the expected human lifespan. They are all variants of '1 degree = 1 year'. Having said that, the way to convert it using the Naibod key would be 227°07'59" / 0°59'08.33" = 230.44 years, or 230 years 161 days. Rounded.
Edit: I see now that this is a mundane chart, not a natal one. I am not sure how traditional the use of primary directions for such a chart would be. (Note the spelling Sibly, without the e.)
For more information on primary directions, see my website (in the signature). _________________ http://www.martingansten.com 

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###
Joined: 08 Jul 2004 Posts: 1381

Posted: Sat Jul 14, 2012 6:49 pm Post subject: 


Quote:  Calculating not only the exact day but even the exact time of day when a primary direction is believed to perfect is utterly unnecessary  and I might add, as as we are on the Traditional forum, untraditional. It also presupposes a ridiculous level of exactness in the time of birth: getting even the day of a primary direction 'hit' to the angles right requires, on average, a birth time known to a fraction of a second! As there are 24 hours = 1440 minutes = 86400 seconds in a day, timing a primary direction to the second would mean knowing the time of birth to the picosecond. That's not how astrology works.
The traditional use of primary directions is to identify a particular year in which one or more events corresponding to the nature of the direction would take place. That's it. For more detailed work, we have profections, revolutions, transits, etc.

I'm happy to see this. As far as I can tell astrology was never meant to be treated with the precision we now take for granted through the sciences. To me, the use of such precision indicates someone who is really more at home with science and mathematics than with the interpretive art of astrology. 

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james_m
Joined: 05 Dec 2011 Posts: 2206 Location: vancouver island

Posted: Sat Jul 14, 2012 8:06 pm Post subject: 


first off i am always happy to read a post from martin g as i usually learn something and appreciate his thorough consideration.
i think the inability of many astrologers in more modern times to be able to do technical work required to examine primary directions without the aid of a computer touches on the importance of what i think you are highlighting kirk. i take the opposite position and think it is important for astrologers to know how to make these technical measurements in order to properly understand just what they are looking at.. i think there is room for many different approaches to astrology and consider those with a more mathematical or scientific nature to be of great value to astrology as well. they may or may not excel at the interpretive process to astrology, but then most people i know aren't gifted with everything.. 

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Mjacob
Joined: 17 Nov 2011 Posts: 345 Location: Kent  England

Posted: Sat Jul 14, 2012 8:44 pm Post subject: 


Well some knowledge of maths certainly helps with pd's and of course one needs to know geometry,astronomy and the rest to understand astrology but without any interpretive art it is just maths. Once again I agree with Kirk.
In modern times people seem to believe that science is the only valid way to interpret anything and astrology has to fit in throwing in a lot of diagrams and numbers. Can't go on at length now as I am on phone in the pub 

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Michaelb
Joined: 21 Apr 2011 Posts: 67

Posted: Mon Jul 16, 2012 4:37 pm Post subject: 


Hi,
Where to begin, smile smile
>>>>Calculating not only the exact day but even the exact time of day when a primary direction is believed to perfect is utterly unnecessary  and I might add, as we are on the Traditional forum, untraditional<<<
A gentle nudge to hurl a ray at Topic Header says Traditional (& Ancient) Techniques see the (and Ancient) Mr Tom in the FAQ again mentions ancient and no where says it is not allowed.
To the point overlooking the ............. replies, if any of you are willing to help with formulae, much appreciated.
Here is calculation I have done vs what is found on Astro.com it is aspect I listed in initial post MC sxt Sun 226 degrees 38 minutes and 43 seconds of arc. A Com says the aspect falls out 15 June 2006.
So I take the Naibod coefficent 1.01456164 found in Morinus. Under Options on Morinus select Primary Keys. Then select Naibod and see the coefficient. So I go to this URL, may be of interest for some of you:
http://www.satsig.net/degreesminutessecondscalculator.htm
and convert minutes seconds to decimal So I then get 226.64528 multiply times coefficient on Morinus comes to 229 degree years point 94559 or 229.94559. 229 degree years is to 2006. Then multiply .94559 times 365.2424 and this gives 345.36956 days.. I go to this page :
http://www.timeanddate.com/date/dateadd.html
and I type in date 4 July 1776 Then for years I give 229, skipping over months. For days I use 345.36956 but I am only allowed three decimals or 345.369 this comes to
From date:Thursday, 4 July 1776
Added 229 years, 345 days
Resulting date: Wednesday, 14 June 2006
as shown on web sight
I multiply .36956 decimal times 24 gives 8+ hours. UT for chart is 21.43.40 so adding 8+ hours gives me the same date Astro.com 15 June 2006. But since I have no other time to compare I feel a bit iffy with further calculations for clock time to get the exact time to minutes and eventually seconds. I can do without the seconds.
Hope I made no typos with any of the numbers. I end this but do thank any one with time to fullfill my initial request. I will be most grateful. Michaelb 

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Martin Gansten Moderator
Joined: 05 Jul 2008 Posts: 1152 Location: Malmö, Sweden

Posted: Mon Jul 16, 2012 5:29 pm Post subject: 


Michaelb wrote:  A gentle nudge to hurl a ray at Topic Header says Traditional (& Ancient) Techniques see the (and Ancient) Mr Tom in the FAQ again mentions ancient and no where says it is not allowed. 
Are you suggesting that attempting to time a direction to the day, hour, minute and second is an ancient practice?? _________________ http://www.martingansten.com 

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