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where is Anne's denture?
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johannes susato



Joined: 04 Jan 2009
Posts: 1287

Posted: Thu Jul 12, 2012 8:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Geoffrey wrote:
Why should it be that the Moon should perform better in those signs [Taurus, Cancer, Sagittarius and Pisces], do you think?


Geoffrey

Probably because in these signs the benefics are involved too:

Taurus: Venus' house; the Moon's exaltation
Cancer: the Moon's house/sign; Jupiter's exaltation
Sagittarius: Jupiter's house
Pisces: Jupiter's house; Venus' exaltation.

Why Libra, the second house of Venus, is not mentioned by Lilly I don't know. Perhaps because she is only the smaller benefic?

Johannes
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johannes susato



Joined: 04 Jan 2009
Posts: 1287

Posted: Thu Jul 12, 2012 11:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thank you for your short curriculum on Barbara Watters, Geoffrey! Thumbs up Very Happy

As to Olivia Barclay you will find this error about void of course in the teachings of Lilly until now. Interesting: the Solar Fire programme gives the -in the sense of Lilly- wrong information about the void of course Moon nevertheless referring to him. All readers of Olivia Barclays writings I know did find no justification for her dissenting opinion so from this I argued her erroring and not dissenting consciously.

Johannes
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Geoffrey



Joined: 09 Jul 2012
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Location: Scottish Borders

Posted: Thu Jul 12, 2012 12:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

johannes susato wrote:

Why Libra, the second house of Venus, is not mentioned by Lilly I don't know. Perhaps because she is only the smaller benefic?

Johannes


Yes, I think you are right and there are a number of reasons why Lilly chose those signs - but I am not sure I go with you on Sagittarius. You seem to treat the Moon as a benefic planet and so couple it with Venus and Jupiter, but I think the Moon is actually neutral which is why is acts to indicate function - good and bad - in the chart.

Pisces because it is a watery sign and the Moon is a moist planet?

Geoffrey
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Geoffrey



Joined: 09 Jul 2012
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Location: Scottish Borders

Posted: Thu Jul 12, 2012 12:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

johannes susato wrote:
Thank you for your short curriculum on Barbara Watters, Geoffrey! Thumbs up Very Happy

As to Olivia Barclay you will find this error about void of course in the teachings of Lilly until now. Interesting: the Solar Fire programme gives the -in the sense of Lilly- wrong information about the void of course Moon nevertheless referring to him. All readers of Olivia Barclays writings I know did find no justification for her dissenting opinion so from this I argued her erroring and not dissenting consciously.

Johannes


Knowing Olivia as I did, and knowing Lilly as she did, I do not think this was an unconscious error on her part.

Geoffrey
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johannes susato



Joined: 04 Jan 2009
Posts: 1287

Posted: Thu Jul 12, 2012 2:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

johannes susato wrote:
Geoffrey wrote:
Why should it be that the Moon should perform better in those signs [Taurus, Cancer, Sagittarius and Pisces], do you think?


Geoffrey

Probably because in these signs the benefics are involved too:
Taurus: Venus' house; the Moon's exaltation
Cancer: the Moon's house/sign; Jupiter's exaltation
Sagittarius: Jupiter's house
Pisces: Jupiter's house; Venus' exaltation.

Why Libra, the second house of Venus, is not mentioned by Lilly I don't know. Perhaps because she is only the smaller benefic?

Johannes


Geoffrey, when you write later:

- - - "Yes, I think you are right and there are a number of reasons why Lilly chose those signs - but I am not sure I go with you on Sagittarius. You seem to treat the Moon as a benefic planet and so couple it with Venus and Jupiter, but I think the Moon is actually neutral which is why is acts to indicate function - good and bad - in the chart.

Pisces because it is a watery sign and the Moon is a moist planet?"
- - -

I have difficulties to understand your question after my text above. Sorry for having been not clear enough possibly.

Whether the Moon is a benefic or not is in this context of void of course of no importance. The signs Lilly lets the Moon be helped by, she being void of course, are (partly) also the houses or exaltations of the benefics Venus and Jupiter. And as benefics receive the Moon in their houses or exaltations, thus helping her. So being in pisces the Moon is received by Jupiter in his house and by Venus in her exaltation.

Johannes

PS: All a bit off topic; so the missing part is perhaps with its owner again?
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Tzadde



Joined: 07 Apr 2011
Posts: 137

Posted: Thu Jul 12, 2012 3:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

johannes susato wrote:
Probably because in these signs the benefics are involved too:

Taurus: Venus' house; the Moon's exaltation
Cancer: the Moon's house/sign; Jupiter's exaltation
Sagittarius: Jupiter's house
Pisces: Jupiter's house; Venus' exaltation.

Why Libra, the second house of Venus, is not mentioned by Lilly I don't know. Perhaps because she is only the smaller benefic?

Johannes

I agree, these Signs belong to benefics. This is an obvious pattern, at least.

I think Libra is ruled by Saturn by day (being his exaltation and triplicity in the same time), while Venus rules Libra by night. So Libra is not that benefic, if we are to follow that logic.
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johannes susato



Joined: 04 Jan 2009
Posts: 1287

Posted: Thu Jul 12, 2012 3:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sounds logical, indeed.

I'm nearly sure that my explanation above is following Lilly, but I don't succeed in finding that passage in CA. Perhaps someone else is luckier . . . ?
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Deb
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Joined: 11 Oct 2003
Posts: 3866
Location: England

Posted: Thu Jul 12, 2012 4:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The ref in Lilly's Christian Astrology is p.299: "for if she be void of course, there's no great hopes of the Question propounded, that it shall be effected; yet if she be in Cancer, Taurus, Sagittarius or Pisces, your fear may be the less, for then she is not so much impedited by being void of course"

The reason is - Cancer (in her own sign); Taurus (in her exaltation), Sag + Pisces (in the dignities of Jupiter).

It's an aphorism from an older work but I can't remember now where I've seen it before. I'll come back with a ref if I find it.

Regarding Olivia (I taught her course at the time that the realisation of Lilly's use of VOC came to light). This was mainly due to Sue Ward's investigation, prompted by debates that were going on with Maurice McCann at that time. Olivia's taught what she (and everyone else at that time) believed to be Lilly's understanding of VOC, based on that given in early 20th century books. I initally did the same, as did Sue Ward before she investigated this to solve the puzzles of what looked like errors in his chart work. Subsquent research has shown that Lilly and other authors of his era had a different understanding of the definition of VOC than that given in many modern works, because it is not VOC if it is within orb of an aspect (and can be described as 'void' if outside of an aspectual orb, even though it will go on to complete an aspect before changing signs).
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Geoffrey



Joined: 09 Jul 2012
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Posted: Thu Jul 12, 2012 5:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for clearing those points up Deb.

Geoffrey
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stanstar



Joined: 09 Sep 2005
Posts: 202
Location: Edinburgh Scotland

Posted: Wed Jul 18, 2012 4:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

To add a little humour to all the debate here on Void of course Moon. I would go for the the fact of Moon VOC. The reason being that Anne's missing front tooth is very alarming to me, especially when she laughs. All I see is a VOID OF COURSE tooth. Missing tooth. The VOC Moon describes the situation perfectly, so in this point alone I would be in favour of describing the chart as radical. And I don't think we are going to find it before her dental appointment tomorrow.
Thank so much for the help here guys and especially Deb.

Stan
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