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Delineating more than one Planet in a House
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Tzadde



Joined: 07 Apr 2011
Posts: 137

Posted: Mon Jul 16, 2012 1:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nixx wrote:
Blimey I am a real maverick in academic psychology, not many look at Horoscopes, maybe less uninformed stereotyping Kirk!


I have never seen an astrological delineation from you. Care to give one in Bundy's case? Kirk is actually intelligent and attacking him doesn't do any favor to you; especially when I see that he didn't give you any reason to do what you did...
It actually doesn't matter whether you are a "real maverick academy psychology" or not, if you let your emotions override reason and especially if you don't contribute astrologically in this forum, which is a place for traditional astrologers.
Also, I may say some (more) things about you, based on what you have said, but I'll mind my own business here, trying my skills on Bundy's chart.

So back on topic, I noticed there are two extremely afflicted planets, Saturn and Venus. Also Mercury, Jupiter, the Sun and the Moon, but on different levels.

The afflictions of Saturn and Venus: both are peregrine, in detriment and retrograde. Saturn rejoices in 12th, Venus is angular, which actually worsen the afflictions. Venus is related to all women, including his mother (as ruler of 10th). Also, 4th is the grave, the underground... You can do a connection here.
Saturn is the nocturnal significator of the father and - along with Scorpio hosting 4th - his afflictions strongly state a deceitful father figure. Note the ruler of 4th in trine with Saturn.

Okay, now there is something interesting about Jupiter. He rules 5th, 8th and 12th by exaltation (also, the lack of aspect between Moon and Cancer strengthens Jupiter's rulership). Also, he is afflicted by his peregrine state and his position in a malefic Sign.

5th is sex, 8th is death and 12th is the House of Evil Spirit, according to the old astrologers.
Jupiter also rules the Sun and the Moon, the conditional Lights in any nativity. Given the nocturnal nature of the chart, Moon is prominent here.

Also, someone (I think Kirk) pointed Jupiter as Almuten Figuris, thus giving him more weight. AF is the soul's purpose in life. The Asc ruler can be seen as the soul itself. There - Jupiter in Scorpio and 4th and Sun in Sagittarius, in the same place with South Node and Mars (both afflicts him). I suppose that afflicted Jupiter in a fixed Sign and as dispositor of soul (along with the chart being nocturnal) didn't let Ted Bundy much free will to operate in this world.

Both the Sun and the Moon are afflicted by South Node and Mars. The Sun is peregrine, the Moon is only in decan. Interesting, the Asc is in Martian term. The Sun is ruler of Asc. I see both Sun and Mars in 5th by Whole Signs, as I can say he was looking a bit childish (Sagittarius) in other people's eyes (those who had direct contact with him), which may lead them to believe him innocent.

I read a story about a woman who fell in love with Bundy, believed strongly his plea of "not guilty" and he fathered a child with that woman; I think that woman was his lawyer, but I'm not sure. Here you see the Moon, the woman, with both Sun and Mars. When she found out he admitted all the accusations, she disappeared and changed her name and her home, even moved to another city, I think.
Also, note the Moon being in 5th - a child with her.

Mars, when afflicted, is always blood thirsty, especially when in an enough prominent placement and in a human Sign. Sagittarius has two halves: the first is human, the second is beastly. Mars is in the human half... The 5th House is also powerful enough to propel the native to do something bad.

So there works the generosity (mutual reception without aspect) between Jupiter and Mars...
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Nixx



Joined: 10 Dec 2011
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Posted: Mon Jul 16, 2012 1:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Paul wrote:


Why do you say this Nixx? I remember several things that happened during that time, including my being potty trained, my nappy being changed, starting playschool at 3, learning to read at 3 etc.


Are you familiar with this kind of material:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neuroanatomy_of_memoryhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Memory_development

Of interest re Bundy is if he had received a profound lack of care in this period, part of which may have been a fear of his grandad , then the memory is encoded / retained in the amalgyda quicker. Because this is more ''emotionally charged' (this is 'trauma', technically), the memory becomes harder to retrieve as doing so will create considerable anxiety.

As you are one of the minority who recall early infancy more clearly, or think you do, we can suggest you were not beaten senseless every night or starved for days. Very Happy

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychological_trauma

''Some theories suggest childhood trauma can lead to violent behaviour, possibly as extreme as serial murder. For example, Hickey's Trauma-Control Model suggests that "childhood trauma for serial murderers may serve as a triggering mechanism resulting in an individual's inability to cope with the stress of certain events."[4]

Without knowing what happened more exactly then we have this problem, or a Psychological Astrologer would, in deciding if this time is likely to be accurate for one thing and more critically being sure the Moon is in the 4th This is the problem when looking at charts where you do not personally know the person/life well, don't have a brain scanner to hand or a background in Psychiatry. So we end up trying to 'fit' a chart to a biography or two and these may be oblivious to a lot of Bundy's reality or psyche if you prefer.

Anyway I don't come to Skyscript to talk about Psychology, can you spin some sect, lots, speed .....onto this chart and inform us as to how this nasty 'fate' would be delineated by some of the old fellows?
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Nixx



Joined: 10 Dec 2011
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Posted: Mon Jul 16, 2012 2:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tzadde wrote:

I have never seen an astrological delineation from you. Care to give one in Bundy's case? Kirk is actually intelligent and attacking him doesn't do any favor to you; especially when I see that he didn't give you any reason to do what you did...


A correction is not an attack.



I liked your delineation as an insight into ideas we are interested in here.

It seems as though you think Bundy's chart is a bt of a bugger, ie. 6 of the 7 classical planets are not in good shape.

What do you mean by Saturn is 'hosting' the 4th?
Is this malefic sign idea common in the tradtion?, I don't know if I have encountered this before.
This idea of the 'soul' being linked to the Asc ruler is from what period or authors? and why ? Also how would you define Soul i.e is this the Kirk/Hillman conception or another ?


Last edited by Nixx on Mon Jul 16, 2012 2:35 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Paul
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Posted: Mon Jul 16, 2012 2:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nixx wrote:
Paul wrote:


Why do you say this Nixx? I remember several things that happened during that time, including my being potty trained, my nappy being changed, starting playschool at 3, learning to read at 3 etc.


Are you familiar with this kind of material:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neuroanatomy_of_memory
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Memory_development


Can you point out where either of these links show that the child does not remember their first 3 years of life? If anything these links seem to contradict that statement considerably.

Quote:

''Some theories suggest childhood trauma can lead to violent behaviour, possibly as extreme as serial murder. For example, Hickey's Trauma-Control Model suggests that "childhood trauma for serial murderers may serve as a triggering mechanism resulting in an individual's inability to cope with the stress of certain events."[4]


Right but you seem to almost be arguing a reversed logic, that violent behaviour stems from childhood trauma. That childhood trauma can result in violent behaviour is not indicative that violent behaviour stems from childhood trauma. In other words Dogs are Animals, that doesn't mean that Animals are Dogs, some are cats.

Quote:

Without knowing what happened more exactly then we have this problem, or a Psychological Astrologer would, in deciding if this time is likely to be accurate for one thing and more critically being sure the Moon is in the 4th


Right but we're not looking at it from a psychological astrologer's viewpoint. We're looking at it from a traditional viewpoint, in fact we're actually looking at multiple planets in a house via the traditional method and just using this as an example.

Nixx wrote:

This idea of the 'soul' being linked to the Asc ruler is from what period or authors? and why ? Also how would you define Soul i.e is this the Kirk/Hillman conception or another ?


I don't know if this is the best thread to start learning traditional astrology though as that's not its purpose.
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Nixx



Joined: 10 Dec 2011
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Posted: Mon Jul 16, 2012 4:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Paul,
1/Try this one, I should have put 'most' people, and ignored the context somewhat:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Childhood_memory#Neurobiology_of_childhood_memory
‘’According to a study by Riggins et al.(2009), observations lend support to age-related increases in contextual memories. This is linked to maturation of frontal lobe structures and connectivity between the prefrontal cortex and medial temporal lobe.[6] Recollection memory for details of individual objects is related to heightened activity in the anterior medial prefrontal cortex and lateral parietal/temporal regions.[6] Recollection for details include the temporal order of events, and this is demonstrated to improve with age even between ages 3 and 4.[6]’

2/ I wasn’t saying this. Childhood trauma had been found to be a statistically significant factor in the later development of psychopaths/serial killers, and recent 'hard' research is suggesting why. That’s all.

3/- Yes, but what we need to do here is encapsulated in Robert Hand's thoughts:
‘’If you were to study the medieval texts without some grounding in contemporary, you’d practise astrology as it was practised centuries ago, and that is not appropriate—this is not the middle Ages’’.

Imagine there was such an entity as a ‘forensic astrologer employed to profile serial killers or find the killer, as it were. Once the state was convinced in say Tzadde’s horoscopy, we then need to dialogue with them which involves relating it to the ‘academic ‘lens in vogue at the time. Which we would need to be familiar with. The Psychiatrist would be asking the forensic astrologer about the early life nowadays as this is the current go to place and anticipating the astrologer might provide the chart that fits this paradigm. . The astrologer might say I think this chart is Bundys / the man we are looking for, not the other 4 and this is not directly related to good enough parenting but ‘soul damage’ or ‘sexual perversion’ or ‘’blood thirst’’ ...and runs deeper than this, or the genesis of these behaviours is found in adolescencent experiences, etc. Regardless the objective is to stop him killing again.

4/ I’m interested here in :
a/ How multiple planets were delineated pre 1700.
b/ How these various schemas are applicable to Bundys chart. Tzadde’s ‘soul’ needs defining , not least as it was on the face of it quite central to his./her delineation, as it always does when people throw this nebulous concept into the semantics.

You and your endemic tangents, Gemini?
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Tzadde



Joined: 07 Apr 2011
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Posted: Mon Jul 16, 2012 6:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nixx wrote:
Tzadde’s ‘soul’ needs defining , not least as it was on the face of it quite central to his./her delineation, as it always does when people throw this nebulous concept into the semantics.

Soul doesn't have a quite clear-cut definition. I have the following approach: if it isn't body (Asc), mind (Mercury) or emotion (Moon), then it is soul (ruler of Asc along with Sun). You are not the body, neither the mind nor the emotional states. Something must deal with them all; this must be the soul.

I guess you know how death is depicted in many cultures: the soul leaving the body. This is my general understanding of the soul.
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Nixx



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Posted: Tue Jul 17, 2012 12:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tzadde wrote:

Soul doesn't have a quite clear-cut definition. I have the following approach: if it isn't body (Asc), mind (Mercury) or emotion (Moon), then it is soul (ruler of Asc along with Sun). You are not the body, neither the mind nor the emotional states. Something must deal with them all; this must be the soul.

I guess you know how death is depicted in many cultures: the soul leaving the body. This is my general understanding of the soul.


It looks like a more Christian notion than the more animistic one of Hillman’s and the archetypal astrologers.

Do you know when this conception crept into western astrology, I'm thinking of the time of Aquinas here.

Going on memory here I think the ‘soul’, albeit a different thinking then, used to be linked to the Moon, this may have been in the Hellenistic period, anyone know?
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Tzadde



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Posted: Tue Jul 17, 2012 12:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nixx wrote:
Going on memory here I think the ‘soul’, albeit a different thinking then, used to be linked to the Moon, this may have been in the Hellenistic period, anyone know?

According to the old textbooks, the Sun signifies the vital energy, while the Moon signifies all the humours (the four humours, I'm sure you know them). The vital energy is what animates the body, giving life to it. The humors are more related to moods; notice how "Moon" and "mood" are alike.

Therefore, the Moon is linked to the body, along with the Asc. You know what makes people moody: the hormones. You can't separate the emotions from the body in this point of view.
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Nixx



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Posted: Tue Jul 17, 2012 1:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tzadde wrote:

According to the old textbooks, the Sun signifies the vital energy, while the Moon signifies all the humours (the four humours, I'm sure you know them). The vital energy is what animates the body, giving life to it. The humors are more related to moods; notice how "Moon" and "mood" are alike.

Therefore, the Moon is linked to the body, along with the Asc. You know what makes people moody: the hormones. You can't separate the emotions from the body in this point of view.


Are you going back to Valens or Dorotheus here? Galen was around 200 CE and this was his view I think.

Emotions is a funny one. You still see this emotions=moon in modern cookbooks. So I have wondered where this idea stems from. It makes no sense to me linking them to just the Moon. Both in the tradition and in some modern systems the emotion anger is linked to Mars, or shame to the Sun, or depression to Saturn, or desire to Venus, euphoria to Jupiter, etc.you could go on so eventually perhaps the majority are linked to other planets than the Moon.

Brainstorming Bundy's emotions when he was killing people you might have these emotions to the fore:

Anger, arousal, desire, ecstasy, excitement, fear, hatred, indifference, loathing, pleasure, rage, satisfaction.

If they were all Lunar, the Moon all of a sudden becomes the symbol for most of our behaviours.
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Tzadde



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Posted: Tue Jul 17, 2012 6:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, I have already pointed out the affliction of Moon (moods) by Mars (you have mentioned what is Mars about) in Bundy's case.

In the old times, it was stated that Moon collects all the lights of the other planets in order to spread them on our sublunar world. That means any aspects the planets are receiving from the Moon are augmented by that Light alone. Especially in nocturnal charts.

So, what you have said might be stated as such: anger is Mars-Moon hard aspects (conjunction, opposition and square), pride (or narcissism in modern times) is Sun-Moon (where did you get shame?), depression is Saturn-Moon and so on...

You see, the Moon is actually the significator of emotions. The behaviour is signified by Mercury, as significator of manners (Lilly's third volume of Christian Astrology). The behaviour is not dictated by emotions (unless you refuse to think for yourself), but by mind.

Nixx wrote:
Brainstorming Bundy's emotions when he was killing people you might have these emotions to the fore:

Anger, arousal, desire, ecstasy, excitement, fear, hatred, indifference, loathing, pleasure, rage, satisfaction.

You contemplate this sort of stuff, aren't you? When I have delineated the Bundy's chart, I didn't pay that much attention to emotions. If you read it again, you'll see I have said something else. I didn't brainstorm when I delineated his chart. I analyzed so it can be understood from a traditional viewpoint, but you hijacked the topic to psychology.

Again, why do you never delineate a chart, if you are so passionate about psychological astrology?
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johannes susato



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Posted: Tue Jul 17, 2012 7:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nixx wrote:
3/- Yes, but what we need to do here is encapsulated in Robert Hand's thoughts:
‘’If you were to study the medieval texts without some grounding in contemporary, you’d practise astrology as it was practised centuries ago, and that is not appropriate—this is not the middle Ages’’.

WE need to do here, what we call astrology - Tom has reminded of this tread's topic repeatedly - and not what you want us to do here.

To understand a technique means to study, to understand and to try it. This step is essential before judging it and to decide if and how to make use of it in our time.
I wonder if Robert Hand has really melted "to study" and "to practise" together in this wrong way as you quote him. [By the way it is not really academic to quote without giving the source completely.]

Nixx, if you really are
Nixx wrote:
"[...] interested here in:
a/ How multiple planets were delineated pre 1700.
b/ How these various schemas are applicable to Bundys chart."

you should stop discussíng off-topic topics in this length and broadness here in this thread.

Would it not be much more generative if you allowed your thaughts, annotations and critique an own topic/thread?

Johannes
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johannes susato



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Posted: Tue Jul 17, 2012 8:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think it would be fine to have this astrological thread here with but short non-astrological annotations together with references to a parallel-thread where this - inevitable and necessary - critique is detailed.

Johannes
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johannes susato



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Posted: Tue Jul 17, 2012 8:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

But hopefully here on the Traditional (& Ancient) Techniques Forum and not far off and concealed on the Philosophy Forum . . .
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Paul
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Posted: Tue Jul 17, 2012 9:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nixx wrote:

4/ I’m interested here in :
a/ How multiple planets were delineated pre 1700.
b/ How these various schemas are applicable to Bundys chart. Tzadde’s ‘soul’ needs defining , not least as it was on the face of it quite central to his./her delineation, as it always does when people throw this nebulous concept into the semantics.

You and your endemic tangents, Gemini?


My tangents?

If you're interested in these points one would be forgiven for not recognising that from your posts. Maybe it's better we return to the traditional model again and drop the psycho-babble for the moment. It might be interesting to start a thread on the Nativities and General astrology forum to discuss the psychological viewpoint.

Here we're not aiming to do that. So if you're keen to learn the traditional approach it's probably better to not engage in the psychological approaches just now.
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Nixx



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Posted: Tue Jul 17, 2012 12:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:

So, what you have said might be stated as such: anger is Mars-Moon hard aspects (conjunction, opposition and square), pride (or narcissism in modern times) is Sun-Moon (where did you get shame?), depression is Saturn-Moon and so on...



Shame is not something we are born with, it is a learnt emotion. In Psychological Astrology the Moon is compared to the Id and the Sun the Ego. (Freudian meaning). Shame is the 'consciousness of something dishonourable' which is related to what our familial-social environment imposes upon us, i.e. the child being told to do this not that, as the this is unacceptable. So it's not a more unconscious emotion, 'beneath' the Ego.

In this model Shame would be delineated in reference to Jupiter and Saturn more directly, as these two planets talk about the sub-cultural milieu and the social mores the child encounters.

Quote:


You see, the Moon is actually the significator of emotions. The behaviour is signified by Mercury, as significator of manners (Lilly's third volume of Christian Astrology). The behaviour is not dictated by emotions (unless you refuse to think for yourself), but by mind.



I don't follow your thinking or language here. I would suggest more of our behaviour, including thinking, is driven by emotions than something like 'robotic thought'. (Someone with the lights in Aquarius may beg to differ) Thumbs down

Quote:
You contemplate this sort of stuff, aren't you? When I have delineated the Bundy's chart, I didn't pay that much attention to emotions. If you read it again, you'll see I have said something else. I didn't brainstorm when I delineated his chart. I analyzed so it can be understood from a traditional viewpoint, but you hijacked the topic to psychology.


I read your delineation as more of a psychological profile, albeit through the lens of traditional astrology, than you may have done. Traditional delineations seem to be largely, if not primarily, focused on psychology from what I can see. As soon as you mention what someone does with their life, or talk about mind, mood, etc this is psychology. For example, ''deceitful father figure'', ''looking a bit childish in other people's eyes''. I also would not suggest you were more focused on his overt than covert behaviour. It's true I am comparing this in my mind to Psychological theory, but then this is somewhat inevitable today, particularly if you are more familiar with this field.

Whether or not this vitalistic soul ought to be understood as overt or covert behaviour is an interesting one, bit of both presumably. Although if it is immaterial we may have a problem in even thinking about this coherently.


Quote:
Again, why do you never delineate a chart, if you are so passionate about psychological astrology? [


Because that would be bad manners here.

By and large the aim for astrologers when looking at traditional techniques, previously unknown to them, (and this applies to those who are more lock, stock and barrel smitten by older schemas as well), is to seperate the wheat form the chaff and see which of these ideas has a utility today. I do the same with any astrological material regardless as to when it was produced, i.e. is this relevant to my life today. So my interest in say 'generosity', 'almuten figuris' , just a couple of older conceptions/techniques you happened to mention, is firstly understanding the rationale behind them and then applying this to my 'working' schema to see if they can be integrated, made useful or not as the case may be. Or even if they threaten the backbone of the schema, as you may know this has happened in some cases and folks then re-invent their approach using 'older' modelling tools. Robert Hand is perhaps the most high profile, or respected chap to have attended to this. He realises the need to also use Psychological Theory, to the extent he is able, to bring the Horoscope alive, or enable it to make sense, to the modern world.

Pretty standard attitude, if not bordering on common sense, thus your question could be construed as a strange one. ? I am conscious of the possibility we may have a bit of a language barrier here which may not be helping.

Robert Zoller summaries this reality succinctly on his site, a la Mr Hand:

6.Can Medieval Astrology be used in conjunction with Psychological Astrology?
‘’Yes, there is no conflict. They complement each other. This is because Medieval Astrology, while it does have something to say about the native's character, has nothing to compare with the sophisticated theories of personality and psychological development which are features of contemporary psychological astrology. Medieval Astrology's character analysis, while it offers penetrating insights, is crude, practical and ad hoc.’’

http://new-library.com/zoller/faq/#6


Quote:
I wonder if Robert Hand has really melted "to study" and "to practise" together in this wrong way as you quote him. [By the way it is not really academic to quote without giving the source completely.]


It is a bit cobbled here
.http://www.astrologyguild.com/2011/09/07/a-chat-with-rob-hand/

He has said much the same elsewhere, the 'Post Modern' talk recently discussed here, I forget if this is at CURA or Astrodienst or both.

Quote:
I think it would be fine to have this astrological thread here with but short non-astrological annotations together with references to a parallel-thread where this - inevitable and necessary - critique is detailed.


Because we can be confident another person has exactly, or almost, the same chart as Bundy and not had a life resembling his, overtly anyway, it is hard to and maybe not that sensible to ignore data which has found a relationship between abuse and psychopathy, and discussed why this is. Assuming we want to, or think a Horoscope can, get to the bottom of his ''4th house''.
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