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Delineating more than one Planet in a House
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Nixx



Joined: 10 Dec 2011
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Posted: Mon Jul 16, 2012 12:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kirk wrote:

Yes, the nurture thing. But there's always the possibility of nature. It's possible that with a birth something very bad - evil - entered the world. In this age of reducing things to influences and concepts we're culturally comfortable with some possibilities are simply ignored. They aren't scientific, and thus not comfortably explained.


Nature or congenital issues aren’t ignored, but the focus is more on nurture at the moment. You follow the 'evidence' as it emerges with these things. In fact these realities make the issue a little darker, less support for the idea some of these folks can be 'cured' or brought back into society since the organic damage is so profound.

In 2012 you won’t get anybody, intelligent, thinking about some evil force or what have you entering the world. An Evangelical Christian might do or a similarly uneducated fruit basket, or a teenager who watched the Omen last night.

Some interesting cases in the USA now in the light of these finding’s where the murderer is put on trial and the court is informed by the Psychiatrist it is not his ‘fault’ but more logically his parents who are sitting in the witness gallery. i.e. who should be on trial exactly. Tricky one? Often the parents are developmentally delayed or mentally ill or physically ill and basically couldn’t do what was necessary. So tragedy heaped on tragedy. The person still gets locked up of course but the death penalty has been sought and refused on occasions due to the emerging neurological evidence.

Bundy has IC ruler Mars conjunct Moon, may symbolise an aggressive ‘father’ more beating than cuddling? Ruler of 10th in the 12th so ‘absent’ mother? If his brain was examined we may know more as to what may have happened early doors. Bundy’s chart fits in ok at first view with the Neuro-Psychiatry. Both luminaries are in the 4th so the immediate focus is on the early home life, father relationship....(I may be getting ‘Psychological ‘here so will stop talking to, perhaps, myself)
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Nixx



Joined: 10 Dec 2011
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Posted: Mon Jul 16, 2012 12:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tom wrote:

3) Bundy said he felt loved in his early environment and there seemed to be a genuine love for his grandfather even after he found out the true nature of his relationship. There is no evidence of childhood abuse of Ted Bundy. I said that previously. If you want to relate something to his murderous rages that is less than savory, consider this, prior to his execution Bundy blamed his desire to rape and kill on his early and frequent exposure to pornography. He didn't get it from his family, either.



Many people have an early and frequent exposure to pornography so there needs to be something more fundamnental as well I would have thought. Bundy is unlikely to have had much insight as to why he did what he did. People rarely do.

Childhood abuse Tom is not getting fed regularly, cuddled, etc this kind of thing. Is this information availiable anywhere about the years 0-3 and who was doing the 'caring' and how ?
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Nixx



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Posted: Mon Jul 16, 2012 12:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

james_m wrote:
i would be leaving the craziness of people like bundy to the trained professionals, but it is fun to contemplate where it is coming from astrologically..


Fun?

Depressing you mean, after all if Bundy had come to see you, assuming the Neuro-Psychiatry nurture idea is not so applicable here then maybe as an Astrologer you could have stopped what followed somehow. Tall order mind.

After all changing the future is the whole point of astrology isn't it, otherwise it's pointless.
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Tom
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Posted: Mon Jul 16, 2012 12:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

For the third time, there is no evidence that Ted Bundy was abused or deprived emotionally in his childhood upbringing. He claimed as much and since he was likely to be executed, claiming abuse could have been to his benefit. But if there is no evidence, then the all we have is speculation. He did have a huge emotional shock, and I don't recall at what age. I'll guess 12 or so.

No evidence means just that. No one claimed it, no one witnessed it and Bundy denied it. At some point the objective observer has to drop this as a possibility until at least some evidence of abuse surfaces.

Think about this for a minute. His mother gave birth to him when she was about 15. That was scandalous in 1946. Instead of putting him up for adoption or kicking his mother out into the street, her parents raised the child to give him the best upbringing free of shame that they could. Raising him this way may or may not have been the best way to handle the situation, but it was handled that way and no abuse is known. He had a teenage mother, normally this doesn't have a good outcome. But her parents stepped up and did their best. Without something to tell us otherwise, we're going to have to accept his own description of his childhood. He never once blamed them even as he was walking to the electric chair.

As for the pornography I never said that was the reason for his rages. In fact I seriously doubt it. I said that he said it. We're all free to give it what weight we wish.

Now let's do some astrology.
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###



Joined: 08 Jul 2004
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Posted: Mon Jul 16, 2012 1:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

YET ANOTHER DIVERSION:

Nixx wrote:
Kirk wrote:

Yes, the nurture thing. But there's always the possibility of nature. It's possible that with a birth something very bad - evil - entered the world. In this age of reducing things to influences and concepts we're culturally comfortable with some possibilities are simply ignored. They aren't scientific, and thus not comfortably explained.


Nature or congenital issues aren’t ignored, but the focus is more on nurture at the moment. You follow the 'evidence' as it emerges with these things. In fact these realities make the issue a little darker, less support for the idea some of these folks can be 'cured' or brought back into society since the organic damage is so profound.

In 2012 you won’t get anybody, intelligent, thinking about some evil force or what have you entering the world. An Evangelical Christian might do or a similarly uneducated fruit basket, or a teenager who watched the Omen last night.

. . .


You certainly don't seem to know what's been going on out there in the world of psychology for quite a few years now. Shocked Beyond the herd mentality of mainstream academic psychology, anyway.

I'm thinking specifically of James Hilllman and Archetypal Psychology. Hillman brought soul, psyche, back into psychology. His book The Soul's Code: In Search of Character and Calling discusses nature and nurture, with nature being a soul quality we enter the world with (quickly, simplistically and possibly inaccurately stated on my part). The book has a chapter titled 'The Bad Seed' with the opening section 'Called to Kill?' Science doesn't like the idea of a soul that is called to have particular qualities which provoke a person to act in particular ways. But astrologers need to be very open to the possibility. This was the home turf of the early philosopher/astrologers.

Hillman was no fruit basket. Delightfully odd in some respects. Thumbs up
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Nixx



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Posted: Mon Jul 16, 2012 2:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kirk wrote:


You certainly don't seem to know what's been going on out there in the world of psychology for quite a few years now. Shocked Beyond the herd mentality of mainstream academic psychology, anyway.

I'm thinking specifically of James Hilllman and Archetypal Psychology. Hillman brought soul, psyche, back into psychology. His book The Soul's Code: In Search of Character and Calling discusses nature and nurture, with nature being a soul quality we enter the world with (quickly, simplistically and possibly inaccurately stated on my part). The book has a chapter titled 'The Bad Seed' with the opening section 'Called to Kill?' Science doesn't like the idea of a soul that is called to have particular qualities which provoke a person to act in particular ways. But astrologers need to be very open to the possibility. This was the home turf of the early philosopher/astrologers.

Hillman was no fruit basket. Delightfully odd in some respects. Thumbs up


Blimey I am a real maverick in academic psychology, not many look at Horoscopes, maybe less uninformed stereotyping Kirk!

I know Hillman's work well, he has been a big influence on my Psychological and Astrological thinking, so something may be getting lost here in translation ?

This book came out in 1997. This stuff is mostly since this time. I don't think it fundamentally threatens this Hillman , Greene , Tarnas Archetypal lens. I will have to give it some thought and try and find this book, all in boxes at the moment. They will doubltless have looked at the Neuro-Psychiatric (not Psychology!) material by now themselves.

Are you suggesting Bundy's 'soul'caused him to kill these people? Would Hillman ? If so isn't this woo woo thinking here? It's not really consistent with the Co -Creative Anima Mundi conceptions these 3 and others of this ilk lecture about as far as I can see?
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Nixx



Joined: 10 Dec 2011
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Posted: Mon Jul 16, 2012 2:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

[quote="james_m"]
Tom wrote:

if you like doing astrology and trying to understand it better thru research or wanting to better understand the symbology any way possible, then it is fun regardless who the chart belongs to.. i agree bundy is a depressing type person to focus on, but he does have more then a few planets in his 4th house, so here we are trying to understand that and learn from one another on how others may have some unique perspective to share..


No fun for me James. It just gives another lens on usually already depressing situations. Sometmes, if not often, it just makes the issue even worse, albeit hinting at solutions not found otherwise. Thus the point of the construct seemingly consistent with the Schmidt Hellenistic lens , as I currently understand this.
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Nixx



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Posted: Mon Jul 16, 2012 4:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:


[color=darkblue] For the third time, there is no evidence that Ted Bundy was abused or deprived emotionally in his childhood upbringing. He claimed as much and since he was likely to be executed, claiming abuse could have been to his benefit. But if there is no evidence, then the all we have is speculation. He did have a huge emotional shock, and I don't recall at what age. I'll guess 12 or so.

No evidence means just that. No one claimed it, no one witnessed it and Bundy denied it. At some point the objective observer has to drop this as a possibility until at least some evidence of abuse surfaces.



People don't remember what happened to them age 0-3. In addition this paradigm in Psychiatry was not around when he was caught so his grandparents would likely not have been examined by the courts Psychiatrist and asked about how they brought him up. They may have felt they did fine, many do in these cases, but only by analysing the care more forensically does this 'abuse' surface. So we can’t, from this distance, say how relevant or not his first few yrs were to his later psychosocial development.

‘’Ted never accepted Johnny as a father figure, preferring his beloved grandfather. Grandfather Cowell was a man with a violent temper, a man who brooked no dissent. His wife was repeatedly taken to hospitals for shock treatment for depression. Her fears grew until she refused to leave the house, a victim of agoraphobia’’.
http://www.astro.com/astro-databank/Bundy,_Ted

So grandad is violent and grandma is depressed suggesting Bundy may not have had a lot of quality care whilst his brain was developing so pivotally.

Looking at this chart with pre-1700 conceptions what clues to the later behaviour do you see here. You mentioned ''inner demons'' even ''death' being found in the 4th through associations with the 8th and 12th (sounds like Liz Greene, which may alarm you).

Where is this extreme hatred of women found, they say he hated his mother, how would they have narrated this bizarre molestation of decaying corpses. .Finally this idea of martyrdom in relation to the ‘family inheritance’ is interesting, although we can suggest he also went to great ends to escape from prison, and not be caught killing initially. I would like to see how Morin’s analogical thinking operates here and seemingly it could get a bit convoluted.
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Donna Chang



Joined: 24 Feb 2012
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Posted: Mon Jul 16, 2012 4:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I like Morin's remarks on the 4th house a lot. Passion=suffering, sounds about right.

Investigators dismissed Bundy's statements about pornography as hokum. He was a psychopath,which means he was a liar and a fabricator, adjusting his stories to suit his audience. He thought the pornography angle would please his Christian evangelist interviewer. Psychopaths come from normal families and deranged ones, some suffer terrible abuse, others none.

Fourth house/tenth house: Bundy sometimes impersonated authority figures to lure women to their literal gravesites. He often returned to the gravesites for further violating. He was terribly insecure about his status in society, inflating his prestige and importance primarily to impress women--the ones he didn't kill.

I can allow the moon in the fifth, explains some of the so-called charm he had, plus he was a real party boy. Mars needs to be in the 4th. He was full of rage but denied it.
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Paul
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Posted: Mon Jul 16, 2012 8:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nixx wrote:

People don't remember what happened to them age 0-3.


Why do you say this Nixx? I remember several things that happened during that time, including my being potty trained, my nappy being changed, starting playschool at 3, learning to read at 3 etc.
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Tom
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Posted: Mon Jul 16, 2012 10:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The topic is multiple planets in a house. Kirk had the decency to note he was going off topic. Side trips are inevitable, but they should not become the major focus of the thread..

Quote:
’Ted never accepted Johnny as a father figure, preferring his beloved grandfather. Grandfather Cowell was a man with a violent temper, a man who brooked no dissent. His wife was repeatedly taken to hospitals for shock treatment for depression. Her fears grew until she refused to leave the house, a victim of agoraphobia’’.
http://www.astro.com/astro-databank/Bundy,_Ted


Precisely the opposite of what I've read. I'm also very suspicious of glittering generalities like "violent temper," and
"a man who brooked no dissent," which could apply to millions of people none of whom are violent. Astro databank is not what I would consider a primary source on anything except birth times. Taking the family neuroses and concluding "abuse" is a non sequitur unless the definition of abuse is so watered down as to include anything unpleasant or imperfect. The family had problems, so does every other family. Please back on topic. If anyone thinks this topic is worth pursuing, fine, please relate it to the chart.

Anyone who wishes to discuss Bundy's ancestry or family, please do so within the context of the chart.
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Tom
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Posted: Mon Jul 16, 2012 11:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
I like Morin's remarks on the 4th house a lot. Passion=suffering, sounds about right.


I hadn't looked at The Cabal in years. I retyped it and it is posted it on Skyscript, but because I'm a lousy typist and I was under some pressure to get it done more quickly than I was doing. I stopped using Wharton"s translation verbatim, and started using modern words or endings in order to type it faster, and the result isn't what I wanted. Apologies to George Wharton. I've been meaning to get back to that to edit it for years.

When I read it yesterday, my instinct was to define "passion" as we would normally define it in contemporary English: intense emotion, as in "Sports are his passion." That didn't seem to fit the 4th house at all, in my opinion, so I went to the Online Etymology Dictionary and found that the earliest Latin definition was "suffering." But the more modern definition first showed up in the 14th century. Morin of course, wrote in the 17th century. Word usage does change slowly, however.

I'm not leading a charge trying to find pity for Ted Bundy. He was a pitiless man. But "suffering" is certainly not out of the question. The modern tendency might be to see this 4th house emphasis in a serial killers' chart as difficulties within the family, but fine, what are they and how is this shown in the chart and can this be seen in some way using traditional methods, Morin's or those of some other traditional authority?


Quote:
Investigators dismissed Bundy's statements about pornography as hokum. He was a psychopath,which means he was a liar and a fabricator, adjusting his stories to suit his audience.


The pornography thing is interesting because of the outcry it produced from the "pornography is harmless" crowd. It reminded me of the Wizard of Oz, "Pay no attention the man behind the curtain."

That Ted Bundy was manipulative and a pathological liar is not disputed. But now and again even pathological liars tell the truth. The problem is determining what is and isn't true. My recollection of the statement is that he admitted the pornography usage, and let the interviewers draw their own conclusions. I don't remember his "blaming" that for his actions, but I haven't looked it up. He may have. Regardless, it is interesting that this remark took on political significance while the potential psychological significance was dismissed. I tend to agree that it's hokum, and if it is related to his activities, it is as a symptom, not a cause.


Quote:
Fourth house/tenth house: Bundy sometimes impersonated authority figures to lure women to their literal gravesites.


Very nice.
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johannes susato



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Posted: Mon Jul 16, 2012 11:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

As to the chart: In his AG Morin preferred Regiomantus houses. For those wanting to follow him herein too, there is a small, but as to the Sun, the Moon (and Uranus) important, difference:
Placidus as given: 5th 22°59 Sagittarius; 11th 22°59 Gemini; 12th 26°38 Cancer

Regiomontanus: 5th 26°35 Sagittarius; 11th 26°35 Gemini; 12th 00°01 (!) Leo

Thus Regiomontanus has the Moon clearly in the 4th, the 12th is just ruled by the Sun (and Uranus would be still in the 10th).

Surely interesting not for Morin purists only.

Johannes
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johannes susato



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Posted: Mon Jul 16, 2012 12:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Additional: I don't know whether Morin changed the calculation for the Part of Fortune at night. If not, POF should be at

10°27 Virgo = 1st house.
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Tom
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Posted: Mon Jul 16, 2012 1:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Surely interesting not for Morin purists only


The house business is and always will be a problem. Morin even had his own house system that he pronounced valid despite it not producing an accurate MC or ASC, but he never used it at least in publication. Also, FYI, Morin had his own version of the five-degree rule. He dismissed the five degree rule on the grounds that philosophically, in his mind, houses began at the cusps, not five-degrees before. But he conceded that planets near the cusp might have influence in the following house based on their orbs. So if a planet has a 5 degree orb (modern sense) or moiety (older sense) and was 3 degrees from the 5th cusp, it would influence the 5th house AND the 4th house.

The problem with this is that Morin used huge orbs for most of the planets in any chart would influence both houses. The orb idea makes sense. It is the huge orbs that make this a problem. For example Morin argued that the Moon had an orb of 24 degrees and therefore a moiety of 12 degrees. So no matter what, the Moon would influence Bundy's 5th house. But he would argue that it was in the 4th, even if it were 1 minute of arc from the cusp. The five-degree rule says the house begins five degrees before the cusp (unless there is a sign change.) But other problems can occur as a result. For example, and this is just a rounded example for explanation purposes, let's say Bundy's planets are in the same position as his natal chart, but that the 5th house begins at 20 Sagittarius. Using Morin's rules, The Sun would influence the 5th house as it is within its 18 degree moiety to the cusp, but Mars would not as it is outside is 6.5 degree moiety. I have a problem with that.

We don't have to blindly follow Morin on this thread. I only used him as an example. We do need to keep it traditional, though.
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