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Delineating more than one Planet in a House
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johannes susato



Joined: 04 Jan 2009
Posts: 1330

Posted: Tue Jul 17, 2012 2:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nixx wrote:
Johannes Susato wrote:
I wonder if Robert Hand has really melted "to study" and "to practise" together in this wrong way as you quote him. [By the way it is not really academic to quote without giving the source completely.]

It is a bit cobbled here
http://www.astrologyguild.com/2011/09/07/a-chat-with-rob-hand/

Thanks for the link, it's uncobbled now and should work.
You'll find the quotation near the end under:
"Teaching dignities…we at the CAAE felt it was an important inclusion to our curriculum…"
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Tom
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Posted: Tue Jul 17, 2012 9:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
WE need to do here, what we call astrology - Tom has reminded of this tread's topic repeatedly - and not what you want us to do here.


Precisely. Sorry I've been AWOL a bit; I'm on the road again. This thread has a topic; let's stick to it, and I'm going to delete future posts that use it for an excuse to babble on about other things.

I hope to be able to start a delineation tonight. For now, I see Mars and Jupiter as the most significant planets in the 4th as they rule all the planets involved and are in mutual reception. Also, and this may have been mentioned or maybe I did. I can't go through everything right now, Jupiter is not only posited in the 4th or influences it if you prefer, but rules the 12th by exaltation and 8th by domicile, the other two houses in Morin's grand trine of houses that involve the 4th.

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Tzadde



Joined: 07 Apr 2011
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Posted: Wed Jul 18, 2012 7:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I might be slightly off-topic (because it isn't about multiple planets in one House, but about Bundy's chart), hope I'm excused for that, because this one is really interesting, coming from Cardan:
Quote:
16. If Jupiter and the Moon in any nativity shall be very weak and afflicted though other positions seem never so premising (typo?), yet the native shall be exceedingly unhappy.

31. The Moon with the Dragon's Tail in a nativity gives suspicion of the mother's honesty and hints that the child is none of the reputed father's begetting; however, it will prove ill-mannered and for the most part unfortunate.

Source: Anima Astrologiae or The Astrologer's Guide, pages 87 and 89.
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Amor ordinem nescit.
Love does not know order.
- Saint Jerome -
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Tom
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Posted: Wed Jul 18, 2012 8:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Actually Tzadde's post does have to do with multiple planets in a chart. The technique suggested is simply do one or two planets at a time with little or no regard to linking that information to the others. That's one way to do it.

In fact I'd like to see Cardan's ideas developed a little further. Why do we think Cardan said what he did? What might be the astrological reasons?
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Tom
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Posted: Thu Jul 19, 2012 12:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I was thinking about Cardan's aphorisms. Aphorisms are not drop dead certainties, but the two fit Bundy very well. Starting with the first one:

Quote:
If Jupiter and the Moon in any nativity shall be very weak and afflicted though other positions seem never so premising (typo?), yet the native shall be exceedingly unhappy.


What does "... though other positions seem never so promising" mean? I have no idea. How bad are Jupiter and the Moon? Jupiter is in a water sign, but he has little dignity. He is in his own terms (Ptolemy). He has accidental dignity by being conjunct an angle. He is square a very nasty Saturn, retrograde and in detriment, and in mutual reception with Mars. So perhaps he meets Cardan's definition of "very weak." This is personal but I've never been fond of the Moon in fire signs. The Moon is conjunct Mars and that's about it. I think she is very weak.

Bundy's Moon is not conjunct the south node in my estimation, but "with" is a pretty broad term and they are in the same sign in the same house and it is hard to argue that Cardan' s statement doesn't apply. I looked up Bobby Darin's chart, as he had the same situation as Bundy. No such luck. The south node is at 5 Cancer and the Moon is at 25 Aquarius. There is domicile rulership and that's it.

In the first instance I can see the connection between Jupiter (jovial) and the Moon (emotions) as being one of: in good condition the native is happy; afflicted the native is unhappy. But I'm not sure that is what Cardan would have had in mind.

The south node and the Moon are indicative of some kind of malice involving the mother.
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###



Joined: 08 Jul 2004
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Posted: Thu Jul 19, 2012 9:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bundy's Mars is definitely conjunct the South Node, even a bit closer when using my preferred Mean Nodes. The South Node is said to be a point of “decrease” and “privation” as quoted from Ben Dykes article 'Some Medieval Uses of the Nodes' { http://bendykes.com/articles/nodes.php }.

Does that make Mars less malefic in this chart? OR → With Mars being the 4th house ruler, is something about the parents and early life 'decreased', lessened, or weakened? I'm wondering if there is some way we could use Mars conj. SN to indicate the parental mystery. Confused

I still see Mars by placement as being primarily a 5th house planet in Bundy's chart. But I may need to reconsider: Mars conj. SN in the 4th may show starting out in life with that parental mystery. My understanding is that house rulers tend to show later events and situations, developments. If Mars is indeed in the 4th then there's an indication that the mystery was present in his environment from the beginning. Of course, it all depends on whether or not Mars-SN has anything to do with the identity of the parents.
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Tom
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Posted: Mon Jul 23, 2012 9:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I want to get back to this topic but my life is not allowing it. But I did think something I was told over the weekend is relevant to the topic even if it is not strictly speaking, astrology.

I was in conversation and I suppose this came in context with the events in Aurora CO this past Friday. Ted Bundy's name came up and the person I was talking to, my son, said that he learned in a college psychology course that Bundy was considered by the professionals to be both a psychopath and a sexual sadist. Even among the seriously mentally ill it is rare to have one person with both diagnosis.

This struck me as a possibility in his 4th house. We might be looking for duality and of course the mutable signs are where we would look. Bundy has his share of 4th house planets in fixed Scorpio and mutable Sagittarius. Mars and Jupiter are in mutual reception in fixed and mutable signs.

I wondered, but did not check, to see if something could be made of the dual diagnosis and the two types of signs in the 4th house or perhaps if we would be better off looking at his chart using whole sign houses. The 5th house is a natural for the sexual side. I'm not sure if the psychopath can be found in the 4th house, assuming we can do this at all.

Just a thought and an avenue to pursue and I hope to be able to pursue it soon.
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###



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Posted: Mon Jul 23, 2012 10:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

. . .

Last edited by ### on Wed Oct 24, 2012 12:40 am; edited 1 time in total
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Tom
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Posted: Tue Jul 24, 2012 12:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
If the authorities in power assign him to two categories with their humanly contrived system of classification does that mean he truly was somehow expressing duality?


I wasn't trying to be philosophical or get too hung up on semantics. My point is that there were two distinct diagnosis in this one man and that sort of thing is apparently very rare. I then noted the possibility only that the dual diagnosis was somehow expressed in the 4th house of his chart and noted that one of the two signs there is mutable and the other fixed. I even said at the end of the post:

Quote:
I'm not sure if the psychopath can be found in the 4th house, assuming we can do this at all.


I see the word "this" could have used some clarification. What I meant to convey is that I'm not sure we can spot this dual diagnosis in the fourth house, but if we can, the fact that two signs are in the fourth and that several planets occupy each sign, might be significant.

In other words it was a thought that occurred to me in the course of a non-astrological conversation and I suggested following up on it, but certainly I wasn't predicting results. I haven't looked at it much myself yet. I'm busy putting my house back together
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###



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Posted: Tue Jul 24, 2012 12:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

. . .

Last edited by ### on Wed Oct 24, 2012 12:40 am; edited 1 time in total
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Nixx



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Posted: Tue Jul 24, 2012 12:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Comorbidity isn't that rare. Psychopathic behaviours are found in around 8% and Sado-masochism/sadism in about 10%, even going back to Kinsey. So perhaps a 1/150 of the population. Bundy is obviously a somewhat extreme example.
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Tom
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Posted: Tue Jul 24, 2012 1:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Oh well. I still see a difference in what others in his society called him and what and how he in fact was.


We all have that difference.

Quote:
I would tend to consider the 10th house instead of the 4th because it's a matter of his standing in his society, how his society views, honors or condemns him.


Now who's being the modern astrologer? Leery The 10th is fair game and as someone pointed out he pretended to be authority figures (10th house) to lure women to their graves (4th house). You bring up an interesting distinction with your understanding of honors (or in his case, infamy). You're looking at it as recognition being bestowed on him by society. I tend to think of it as potential resulting from his actions. In other words, he earned them. Society didn't just give it to him. Maybe I'm splitting hairs but I can see the difference. Still the 10th as a reflection of the 4th is, I think, a valid area to look.

Quote:
It's the voice of his society that gives him the two tags to wear. The society is acting out the mutability.


This I disagree with. He was diagnosed with two serious, separate and distinct psychological disorders (assuming my information to be correct). These aren't just handy labels in his case, but professional diagnoses. I think we can argue, should we have the necessary credentials and/or knowledge, that they are wrong. But I would not be so dismissive of them unless we can demonstrate that these are just pop psychology labels with no real value. I can't see that, if these judgments were made by competent professionals.
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Tom
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Posted: Tue Jul 24, 2012 1:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Bundy is obviously a somewhat extreme example.


Yes in my readings about extreme mental illness related to the Aurora CO killer, it seems that actual violent acts committed by people with serious psychological problems are rare. These people may act out and may act bizarre, but they rarely hurt anyone. It's good copy when they do.

I did not intend to convey that all dual diagnosis was all that rare, although I don't know if it is or not, but that these two in combination was rare, or that is the way it was explained to me. I don't want to get all hung up on the details. Whether the situation is rare or not is beside the point. If the diagnosis is accurate, can we see it in this one chart? That's the question. The other stuff is side material.
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Tzadde



Joined: 07 Apr 2011
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Posted: Wed Aug 01, 2012 10:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Totally unrelated to the Bundy thread, but related to multiple planets in a House.

quote
"The 122d is whether the Part of Fortune be in the first 10 degrees of the Fourth House, with the Dragon's Head, the Moon, Venus and Jupiter, and they direct, for that signifies that the native shall be lucky in discovering and finding out hidden treasure. If it be in the second 10 degrees, or but with two of the said planets, he shall find some, but not in so great quantity. In the last 10 degrees, and without one less, and yet a considerable parcel; and if only the Part of Fortune be there not afflicted, then a small quantity. If the Sun behold it with a trine or sextile, it will be gold uncoined; if the Moon, silver; if Jupiter, a mixture of gold and silver, etc. If Venus, precious stones, lockets, and for the most part women's ornaments. But if they be Retrograde, he shall discover the treasure, but not for himself; another shall get the profit. If the Lord of the Eighth beholds the Lord of the Ascendant with a square of opposition, the finder shall die by reason of it; but if it be with a trine or sextile, he shall only catch some small disease or sickness. If the Dragon's Tail be there instead of the Head, he shall find it, but it shall be taken from him; or being ignorant what it is, he shall give it away almost for nothing; and if the Moon be then separated from the Lord of the Ascendant and joined to an Infortune that afflicts her, he to whom 'tis (?) so given shall have little profit by it. If Mars or the Lord of the Eighth behold the Lord of the Ascendant, they that take it from him shall kill him. But if Mars and Saturn shall be in the place of Jupiter and Venus, the business will be only brass or copper or lead, and if the Lord of the Ascendant be with them, the discoverer is wearied with it, whatever it be, whether vile or precious."
end quote

Source: Anima Astrologiae, Guido Bonatus, pages 54 and 55.
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Amor ordinem nescit.
Love does not know order.
- Saint Jerome -
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Marius Cojoc



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Posted: Sat Aug 04, 2012 10:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

msg deleted
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