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Delineating more than one Planet in a House
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Tom
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Posted: Sat Jul 07, 2012 3:03 pm    Post subject: Delineating more than one Planet in a House Reply with quote

A question arose a little bit ago about multiple planets in the 8th house. I thought about posting something like this on that thread, but the post was limited to the 8th house and I thought the topic could be useful if expanded, so it gets its own thread.

The question is: how do we delineate more than one planet in a house? This happens often enough and it can be a bit of a head scratcher as it is likely that the planets involved between them will rule multiple houses that have to be taken into consideration as well as be in aspect to planets that may or may not be in aspect to the other planet or planets in the house. The more planets, the more potential for confusion.

Iím going to start with Morinís ideas and invite anyone with anything to say on this topic to say whatever they wish. My post is intended as a starting point, not the final word.

We start with the idea that the planet greatly influences the house in which it is posited. That should not be controversial. Therefore, if many planets are in a single house, that area of life will be more important to the native than any other. When progressions, directions, or transits hit one planet in this house, that will just be the first of several ďhitsĒ in this area of life within a relatively short period of time. It follows that the astrologer should pay particular attention to this house.

Planets will either grant, deny, remove, or cause fortune or misfortune in the house in which they are posited. Multiple planets indicate that some planets will either hinder or enhance any of the above.

There is one (usually one) planet that will influence the house more than the others. The others are subordinate to it. So If Jupiter in the 2nd indicates wealth, being conjunct Saturn in the 2nd will hinder that wealth if Jupiter is the dominant planet. If Saturn dominates in some circumstances, he promises poverty, which is alleviated to some extent by Jupiter.

There are several considerations we must look at in order to find the dominant planet in the house. Morin does not give a strict order of importance, but mentions the following as potential dominant planets: the ruler of the house posited in the house, a planet with a strong analogy with the house, or the planet with an analogy that is ruled by the ruler of the house.

The business of analogy deserves a little discussion on its own. The effects of planets are analogous to the meaning of some houses and anathema to others. The aforementioned Jupiter represents wealth, so does the 2nd house. Therefore Jupiter has an analogy with the 2nd house and if so placed deserves strong consideration as the dominant planet among others placed in the 2nd. The Moon, in a manís chart, is analogous to the spouse. Therefore Moon in the 7th might deserve the most consideration, if placed in the 7th with other planets. The same would be true for Sun in the 10th (honors) or Venus in the 5th (love; relationship).

Finally the planet closest to the cusp deserves consideration as the dominant planet. If, for example, Mercury and Venus are in the 4th, neither having a strong analogy to the affairs of the 4th, but Venus is near the 4th cusp, then Venus would be the more influential in the affairs of the 4th than Mercury. If Mercury were closer to the cusp, then the affairs of the 4th would be dominated by Mercury.

Letís look at the Chart of former US President William Clinton.



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Clinton has three classical planets in the first house in Libra, the sign on the ASC, Mars (detriment), Venus (domicile), and Jupiter (dignity only by face). The dominant planet will be Venus as she rules every other planet in the house, followed by Mars on the ASC ruler of the 7th.

There is no doubt that Bill Clinton is a charming man. Venus is what we see and as we have seen in his public life, NOTHING has been able to drag him down in the public eye. Mars is a bit problematic in this chart. He is in detriment and rules the 7th house of others (I will not touch on his marriage). Itís been said of Clinton that, if he learns there is one person in a room full of people, who does not like him, he will seek that person out and charm that person until he does like him. Lord 7 in one ruled by Venus bears that out.

Morin says:
ďÖ if a benefic follows a malefic the evil will also occur but the native will ultimately be freed from it.Ē

Jupiter follows Mars in the first house. Clinton had his share of problems in public (7th house) life both political and personal, but he always came out of it reputation intact to the consternation of his political enemies. It appears that Jupiter prevented the worst from happening to him.

Jupiter plays another role, too, but even though one might think it should be the greatest role considering how it turned out (elected twice to the US Presidency). At this point in history, his presidency is not his legacy. Jupiter is the exaltation ruler of the 10th. This indicates great honors coming to the native. That canít be denied. His legacy however, at this point, seems to be primarily associated with his foibles: Mars dominates Jupiter and hinders the full promise of exaltation Lord 10 in 1. But we need to hold off judgment at this point. History has not had its final say on the Presidency of William Jefferson Clinton.

Please do not limit this discussion to the chart of Bill Clinton. That is not the purpose. This is only an example and everyoneís first house deserves more in depth analysis than this. Any chart with any individual will do, and if the discussion takes off, I have another far more challenging chart to work with down the road a bit.
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###



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Posted: Sun Jul 08, 2012 1:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

. . .

Last edited by ### on Wed Oct 24, 2012 12:40 am; edited 1 time in total
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Tom
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Posted: Sun Jul 08, 2012 2:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

When Noel Tyl and John Frawley agree on something, one must pay attention. Both have said using different words, if something in the chart jumps out at you one must pay attention. Frawley then instructed his students to remain on point and do the temperament first, but keep in mind what you see. I pretty much agree with that. Charts have houses with multiple planets, most charts have at least one and they only contain two planets, but the house must be delineated one way or another. I posted one way.

Quote:
The 8th house signifies the resources of others, loans, inheritance, death, ďfears and anguish of mindĒ, loss. So not just one area of life is important, but several.


Agreed and I thought about this. My suggestion would be, where appropriate, to re-evaluate the planets depending on whether or not we are using derived houses or if we are using the same house differently, e.g. the 7th is the marriage partner and lawsuits. The 8th is spouse's resources and death. Let's look at the 8th and propose Saturn and Jupiter in the 8th. If we are looking at Death then Saturn has the analogy with the house meaning. Saturn dominates. If we are asking about spouse's money, then we give Jupiter the nod. Both planets will play a role in both scenarios, but one dominates one time and another dominates in a derived house.
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Nixx



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Posted: Sun Jul 08, 2012 12:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
There is no doubt that Bill Clinton is a charming man. Venus is what we see and as we have seen in his public life, NOTHING has been able to drag him down in the public eye. Mars is a bit problematic in this chart. He is in detriment and rules the 7th house of others (I will not touch on his marriage). Itís been said of Clinton that, if he learns there is one person in a room full of people, who does not like him, he will seek that person out and charm that person until he does like him. Lord 7 in one ruled by Venus bears that out. ''


He sure needed this Venus in Rwanda, whether they left having been charmed is a good question.

"It may seem strange to you here, especially the many of you who lost members of your family, but all over the world there were people like me sitting in offices, day after day after day, who did not fully appreciate [pause] the depth [pause] and the speed [pause] with which you were being engulfed by this unimaginable terror."

http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2001/09/bystanders-to-genocide/4571/

This genocide I suspect will be up there when the serious obituary gets written. So this idea that his reputation is intact could be changed to his bad reputation remains intact.

He sought, and found, some redemption in Kosovo of course. We think Morin has the Sun/Moon in Pisces in the 12th so some astrologers (today) would speculate Morin would have likely thought a lot about redemption. Do you know what house and/ or planet he would have looked at on Clinton's chart to tackle this Rwanda/Kosovo dynamic ?
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Tom
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Posted: Sun Jul 08, 2012 2:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The purpose of this exercise is to discuss methods of delineating several planets in a single house. Following that line of thought I chose Bill Clinton's chart as it exemplified one of Morin's (and perhaps others') maxim that a benefic following a malefic in a house indicated (roughly) bad followed by good or to put it another way "All's well that end's well. SInce this is the first house, it applies to his reputation. I did not intend it to be applied to every event domestic and foreign during the Clinton Administration. That's a little too precious. All Presidents have their admirers and critics. The aphorism is broad and it is to be applied broadly. Whether Clinton deserves to enjoy the reputation he happens to enjoy is beside our point. He is enjoying it. Whether he will always be viewed positively remains to be seen.
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Nixx



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Posted: Sun Jul 08, 2012 4:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think my point is that he isn't currently viewed ''positively'' because of Rwanda. At least in the circles I mix in. Lewinksy didnít help either, not the act but the response, but this is trivial in comparison.

It may be in the USA he enjoys a better reputation. Are we talking the man in the street here or the intelligentsia? I heard once Reagan was popular in America even now, whereas in Western Europe he is seen as a blundering idiot.

If in Morin's schema Jupiter is seen as ''positive'' , both in itself and on this chart, then presumably he would have been of the view that for Clinton his reputation (which curiously he links to the 1st house) will improve, or from my perspective undergo significant repair.
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Tom
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Posted: Sun Jul 08, 2012 5:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bill Clinton survived an impeachment and served out his second term without incident despite both houses of Congress being held by the opposition party, thus bearing out Morin's axiom. Apparently he is none the worse for wear as no one seems to mind that he was only the second US President to be impeached. That he has critics is hardly unexpected.

Ronald Reagan took over an economy that was arguably worse than the one in existence now, turned it around, ushered in an era of prosperity that benefited both President Bushes and Bill Clinton, rebuilt the essentially demoralized and underfunded US military to make it the most powerful and technologically advanced in the world, and was a major reason that the USSR collapsed. I'm sure some people see that as bumbling, but not the ones who benefited like some Eastern European nations that were once Soviet slave states. He was elected twice by landslides. When he died, 15 years after leaving office and about ten after his last public appearance, to pay their respects people stood for hours on streets to catch a four-second glimpse of his hearse. Yeah he was and is popular but he has enemies - who doesn't? Again the purpose of the axiom is to point out that astrological reason for bad turning around in the end. Rwanda doesn't figure into this.

I did not want to turn this thread into political commentary, so lets move on.
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james_m



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Posted: Mon Jul 09, 2012 12:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

i think it is a good question / exercise to explore as i am sure it confuses many folks who are very into astrology, or alternatively - they think they know exactly what it all means and are perhaps not too receptive to being challenged by the many possible ways to interpret multiple planets in 'one' house.

do you put emphasis on the sign and which planet is the ruler of the sign - as it seemed tom did with the lesser planet of fortune -venus in libra in the clinton example, or do you say for example that due the fact that mars forms the closest connection to the ascendant by degree, that the mars in libra interferes with what would ordinarily be a well liked and likeable personality with venus and jupiter rising in the ascendant and sign of libra? now, maybe tom didn't do this with clinton and as tom has said, it isn't so much about clinton but the idea of how to interpret multiple planets in a house that we are using him as an example. tom focused on jupiters role more then venus as i recall which makes a certain amount of sense from the point of view of jupiter being the largest and slowest moving body (leaving neptune out of this for a moment) which the quicker planets are applying towards. jupiters energy would seem to overshadow venus and mars as a consequence.

above are some of the many ways that one could approach putting an emphasis on mars, or venus or jupiter in the chart of clinton.. which one would be the most accurate? and, this doesn't go into how mixing any 2 of the 3 planets together creates a special energy - mars with venus in a conjunction - sex appeal is an obvious merging of these 2, or venus/jupiter in libra - social skills are highlighted along with a love of interacting with others in some rewarding and harmonious way. then we have the way that planets have a connection to the sign that they rule which tends to put the spotlight of venus ruling the ascendant in libra in emphasis again, while the other houses ruled by mars and jupiter are somehow captured in this trio of planets rising in the first.

as you can see, i can bumble as good as any other bumbling astrologer and make it sound like i have said something when i haven't said much.. someone can confirm this for me if they want, lol. i won't get into how clinton is viewed differently around the globe then he might be within the usa. for that we would have to talk propaganda or something else, but not astrology it would seem. perhaps it is harder to find a neutral chart then one could imagine, that doesn't pull us into something other then astrology.
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Posted: Mon Jul 09, 2012 1:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

. . .

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james_m



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Posted: Mon Jul 09, 2012 1:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

another few thoughts that quickly crossed my mind since i am absorbed in that firmicus maternus book matheseos libri v111 i mentioned in another thread are how the moon applying or separating from a particular planet would emphasize that planet much more significantly according to this same book.. as it turns out - the moon in clintons chart is essentially seperating from mercury and applying to the sun, so it does not involve the cluster of planets in his ascendant, but if it had, i think one would have to read these same planets in the ascendant very differently. another layer to this would be planetary sect as well, as we see jupiter in clintons chart is the same planetary sect as the sun in a diurnal chart giving it greater strength on the basis of this anyway.. and finally planetary phase might push to the forefront a particular planet more then another in spite of their being multiple planets in one house.. all 3 planets are rising after the sun in clintons chart which would have to be thought of as different then if they were rising ahead of the sun in a nocturnal chart as an example. perhaps others more adept at ancient and trad techniques would like to comment.. i see what i try to do is find greater emphasis on one planet then another when there is a cluster involved.

by all means, one can learn from others and it doesn't have to be about only one area of astrology, but as kirk likes to point out - this is the old school sandbox..
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Posted: Mon Jul 09, 2012 2:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

. . .

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johannes susato



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Posted: Mon Jul 09, 2012 11:16 am    Post subject: Re: Delineating more than one Planet in a House Reply with quote

Tom wrote:
Morin says:
ďÖ if a benefic follows a malefic the evil will also occur but the native will ultimately be freed from it.Ē

Tom, could you please, if possible and at hand, give the book of AG and the page of your quotation? Thanks a lot in advance.

A very fine thread again!

Joahnnes
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james_m



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Posted: Mon Jul 09, 2012 10:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

it seems morin would have been a fan of modern astrology in that he does think having more planets in a house makes that house more 'important'.. i think morin is considered trad, lol.

"when three, four, or five planets are in the same house this house is clearly more important than the others for it indicates something outstanding in connection with the affiars of that house, and the more planets are in that house the more they indicate something important-be it good or ill." he then uses his own chart as an example.. page 67 book 21.
for anyone who would like to read morins take on toms question - see book 21 chapter 3.. it confirms some of the earlier comments made in this thread..

joahnnes - see pag 70 chapter 3 in book 21.
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Nixx



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Posted: Mon Jul 09, 2012 10:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

james_m wrote:


by all means, one can learn from others and it doesn't have to be about only one area of astrology, but as kirk likes to point out - this is the old school sandbox..


I think the general idea is to compare Morin's schema to the 50 or so that came before not the 250 which came after. Practically this can be difficult if somewhere in your circuitry is an exposure to some of the 250,

I canít off the top of my head recall seeing this idea about benefices coming after malefics resulting in more 'fortunate' outcomes in any other schema to date, so I wonder where Morin got the idea in the first place or was it self -generated?

Having thought about it for a couple of days I can't see the logic or find any 'empirical 'reasons to suggest it might be a runner for the moment, may need a few other charts to play with here.?

Quote:
It seems Morin would have been a fan of modern astrology in that he does think having more planets in a house makes that house more 'important'... i think morin is considered trad, lol.


Psychological Astrologers donít consider a house more important because it has more planets in it.
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Posted: Mon Jul 09, 2012 11:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

. . .

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