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House for a child to be adopted
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cosmicdolphin



Joined: 15 Jun 2007
Posts: 673

Posted: Wed Jul 04, 2012 12:36 am    Post subject: House for a child to be adopted Reply with quote

Hey all

Here is a question. What house would represent a child to be adopted?

I am split between 7 and 11th

thanks
CD
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johannes susato



Joined: 04 Jan 2009
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Posted: Wed Jul 04, 2012 9:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

As the child as the 'subject' of the adoption is not a future partner or just only another person (house 7), but is the child of another person (the 5th from the 7th), the child is signified by the 11th and its Lord.

Johannes
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johannes susato



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Posted: Wed Jul 04, 2012 9:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The special act of adoption then transformes the child of another (11th = 5th from the 7th) to the child of the 'new' parents, signified by house 5 and its Lord.

Johannes
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Paul
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Posted: Wed Jul 04, 2012 9:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

What is the question?

If you see the child as goods to be transacted, and one hopes that you would not, then it is Lord 8. However, in the sense that it is your child, adopted or not, then it is Lord 5 as usual.

Unless you are asking in a more general way of someone else's adopted child, in which case it is the fifth from the house that pertains to that someone else, so probably the 5th from the 7th.
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johannes susato



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Posted: Wed Jul 04, 2012 11:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Assumed the question (and this was my understanding of CD' s question) were by the adopting parents: whether to adopt a child at all or a child already known to them?
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Paul
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Posted: Wed Jul 04, 2012 11:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

johannes susato wrote:
Assumed the question (and this was my understanding of CD' s question) were by the adopting parents: whether to adopt a child at all or a child already known to them?


Right but I'd still treat it as though it were there child. The child in question is probably going to be Lord 5. Depends on the question though I guess.
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Tzadde



Joined: 07 Apr 2011
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Posted: Wed Jul 04, 2012 2:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think the general significator of children, Jupiter, can come in handy.
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cosmicdolphin



Joined: 15 Jun 2007
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Posted: Wed Jul 04, 2012 10:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi all

Thanks.

I am just looking at one PDF that says that a child to be adopted is 7th house. I had a VERY tough time with this and after finding a story about a heartbreak of a parent, it totally ended up to be more confusing. She went somewhere and tried to adopt a 12 year old, everything was fine UNTIL she went to court to formalize the documents. The child had a meltdown, he said to the judge that he didnt want to be adopted (he is an orphan and 100% legal to be adopted) because he was leaving his friends behind. There was nothing the judge could do. So someone else on the blog said that there are countries that the judge take 12 year old's opinions even against any kind of logic as valid and turn down the petition for an adoption. In most countries a minor is a minor and 12 year old goes to the parent after the judge says Ok.

so astrologially speaking, if she had asked "will i adopt a child from xxx country?," which house would represent the child? 7th/11th/or jupiter?
And after adoption, does the child flip to be 5th house?

puzzling,
CD
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R.J. Smith



Joined: 01 Jul 2012
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Location: West Kelowna, British Columbia

Posted: Thu Jul 05, 2012 4:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

cosmicdolphin wrote:
Hi all

so astrologially speaking, if she had asked "will i adopt a child from xxx country?," which house would represent the child? 7th/11th/or jupiter?
And after adoption, does the child flip to be 5th house?

puzzling,
CD



Hello Cosmic Dolphin:

Please always remember that a child, (whether from a natural birthbirth or from an adoption) is always a CHILD ! Therefore, in horary astrology, the 5th house is ALWAYS assigned to one's children.

If you are talking about the children of a common-law spouse or partner who also has legal custody of their kids, then give them the 11th house.

A child can never be assigned to the 7th house, UNLESS lol you buy into the late Joan McEver's foolish theory that the child is somehow "equal" to the parent(s).

So yeah, if you buy into Ms. McEvers arrogantly titled book, "The Only way to learn Horary and Electional Astrology " then yes, go ahead and make your child your partner, your equal or even your best friend, (as symbolized by the 7th house?)

The problem is this: your child is NOT your friend, or even your buddy... He or she is your CHILD, a traditional 5th house matter and assignment for well over 600 years !)

By the way, that 5th house designation is never diminished... even by today's family court judges who shamelessly (as you point out) pander to and suck up to 12 year olds and the parental authority of most parents are literally thrown under the bus...


all the best,


R.J. Smith
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johannes susato



Joined: 04 Jan 2009
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Posted: Thu Jul 05, 2012 7:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Paul wrote:
johannes susato wrote:
Assumed the question (and this was my understanding of CD' s question) were by the adopting parents: whether to adopt a child at all or a child already known to them?


Right but I'd still treat it as though it were there child. The child in question is probably going to be Lord 5. Depends on the question though I guess.

Interesting, Paul, this reminds me of Lilly (CA, p.219. . .) answering the question: "If I should purchase Master B. his houses." without turning the chart (page 220):
"[...] Saturn, Lord of the fourth, viz. the houses enquired after, [...]."
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cosmicdolphin



Joined: 15 Jun 2007
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Posted: Sat Jul 07, 2012 10:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi all

Thanks, everyone!

RJ. the reason why I thought of 7th house for a second even though it didnt make any sense is because of what I wrote from someone's blog.
11th house for it is someone else's child.

Johannes susato,
that is exactly what I was asking/wondering. Does it change when a child is known or unknown?

"should we adopt *named child*?"
"should we adopt a child from blahblahblah country's orphanage?"

cheers everyon1
CD
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Tzadde



Joined: 07 Apr 2011
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Posted: Sat Jul 07, 2012 10:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

11th is the joy of Jupiter, the general significator of children, so there is a connection. Also, in nativities children can be signified by both 5th and 11th.

And no, really doesn't matter what are the words of the question, what matters is the intention, the search for an answer. It is the child that you are interested in, not his name or his origin.
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Love does not know order.
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johannes susato



Joined: 04 Jan 2009
Posts: 1320

Posted: Mon Jul 09, 2012 10:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tzadde wrote:
11th is the joy of Jupiter, the general significator of children, so there is a connection. Also, in nativities children can be signified by both 5th and 11th.

And no, really doesn't matter what are the words of the question, what matters is the intention, the search for an answer. It is the child that you are interested in, not his name or his origin.

Do you want houses 5 AND 11 eleven to be signifcators of children in horaries too?
And can you quote please an authority (or more) for your opinion in in the last sentence of passage one, Tzadde?

Johannes
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PFN



Joined: 28 Dec 2008
Posts: 393
Location: Ouro Preto, Brasil

Posted: Mon Jul 09, 2012 2:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

johannes susato wrote:
Tzadde wrote:
11th is the joy of Jupiter, the general significator of children, so there is a connection. Also, in nativities children can be signified by both 5th and 11th.

And no, really doesn't matter what are the words of the question, what matters is the intention, the search for an answer. It is the child that you are interested in, not his name or his origin.


Do you want houses 5 AND 11 eleven to be signifcators of children in horaries too?
And can you quote please an authority (or more) for your opinion in in the last sentence of passage one, Tzadde?

Johannes


I tend to agree with Tzadde, fully. House 11th is a house for children just as 5th is, and it can and should be used in horary just as any other level of astrology (mundane, natal, electional). If for nothing else, just because it is 5th from 7th, and a child have always two biological parents.

Some quotations: in "The Houses, Temples of the Sky", by Deb Houlding, The Wessex Astrologer, pg. 41, section "11th Houses associations through history.... others (classical): good luck, hope, attainement of desires, freed persons, friends, gifts, children."

In Al Biruni's "The Book of Instruction in the Elements of the Art of Astrology", translation by R. Ramsay Wright, pg. 61, section "462. Indications relating to horary questions... XI: The treasury of the Sultan, its officials, trouble in the office, foreigner's child, servants child, things which are unsound, beautiful, advantageous, the begginings of affairs, friendship of the great, bribery, food."

In Valen's Anthology, Book I, digital edition, translation by M. Riley, we see:

pg. 39:

"6. The <XI> Place of the Good Daimon. Many Configurations. The Hearing and the Beholding Signs Must Also Be Investigated.

If Jupiter is in the Place of the Good Daimon, the native will be fortunate, possess a good income, and have many children. If it is also the ruler of the Lot of Fortune, the native will be rich and blessed. If Mercury is in conjunction with it, the native will be and imperial steward and will be happy in his children."

pg. 41:

"15K;16P. Nine Names of the Places.
<Name>
The God <IX> the father
The Goddess <III> the mother
The Good Daimon <XI> children
The Good Fortune<V> marriage
The Bad Daimon <XII> diseases
The Bad Fortune <VI> injuries
The Lot of Fortune and
The Ascendant - I - life and livelihood
Daimon mental activity
Midheaven <X>=MC action/occupation
Love desire
Necessity enemies"

I'm pretty sure there are other quotes and better than these I've put, but right now I can not remember where or into which works.

About the second part expressed in Tzaddes post:

Quote:
And no, really doesn't matter what are the words of the question, what matters is the intention, the search for an answer. It is the child that you are interested in, not his name or his origin.


I wholeheartedly agree with him on this point, although it's not a rule exactly, defended by this or that author, but a philosophical standpoint: the wording of a question is never all that important, although a precise wording can indeed help the astrologer to understand what is really the problem of the querent. Even so, the chart will point you in the direction of the querent's true meaning, but even before that, you should be able to interpret the querent's desire all the same, and not always will it be clear cut in the wording iself. Still, we should always keep in mind that the querent may be deliberately dishonest or manipulative, in which case we can be mislead, not to our fault. If that is the case, there is little we can do to help those who do not want real help, but are trying to take some kind of advantage or come out on top. Either way, it would be a witless thing to do, because fate will not bend itself on a whim, but people will insist on being delusional sometimes. Anyways, in the field of linguistics there is a discipline called pragmatics that can help make my point clearer:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pragmatics

Finally, about having two houses signifying the same thing at the same time, that is helpful, actually, and happens throughout astrology all the time. Both Lot of Fortune and the Ascendants are related to life, and the Sun and the Moon. We just establish priorities accordingly, using criterias. The 5th is the most traditional place for children we have, the radical one, and so, it is, chiefly, the one we look at, still, testimonies to the 11th add up to that, and can help to make a better judgment when there is a clear stalemate between testimonies (which happens quite often). Finally, the use of the 11th for adopted children is sound, as it is a child from "another", a theme belonging to the 7th house.

All in all I defend that it is the sum of testimonies that points to a more correct answer, meaning, a answer closer to reality, and not a single one, no matter how heavy it is. So, conflicting testimonies points to a mediocre state of affairs, generally, where a lot of good ones points to fortune and the contrary, to unfortunate developments.
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Last edited by PFN on Mon Jul 16, 2012 9:14 pm; edited 3 times in total
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cosmicdolphin



Joined: 15 Jun 2007
Posts: 673

Posted: Wed Jul 11, 2012 8:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi all

thanks PFN.
There are a quite few books one comes to mind that said if 5th makes no sense *in native's chart* in another words if 5th does not gift the person with a child, then look at 11th.

Thanks everyone

CD
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