CA vol I: ch.19 - aspects
Part VI of Deborah Houlding's annotated edition of Lilly's Christian Astrology, covering pages 105-114 |
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AstroNovice
Joined: 24 Jun 2012
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| Posted: Mon Jun 25, 2012 7:49 am Post subject: 8th house in traditional astrology |
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I'm kind of curious if the 8th house plays a broader role than just that of death, taxes and inheritances; because I have four planets in the 8th house (whole sign) and I seldom have to worry about taxes, debt, or death. (Although the ruler of my 8th house is exalted so maybe this is why???) So I am curious if there are other, less obvious ways that the 8th house may manifest. I am already familiar with modern astrology's take on the 8th house, but I disregard that for the most part because I dislike modern astrology and its tendency to sugar coat everything. Basically, from studying traditional astrology I already know that the 8th house sucks overall, but I just wanna know how bad it sucks, and why it sucks in terms of mundane, day to day occurrences. Can anyone help me out?
-additionally, I am quite interested in matters of death, occult, magic, power etc, however I always assumed that that was a 'modern' interpretation of the 8th house, so I never bothered associating those things with my 8th house stellium.
*update, I just found the thread about the 8th house, friend or foe. While it did have a lot of good information it left me with a lot of questions still. I'm mainly looking for anecdotal experiences with 8th house functioning if anyone out there has any to share. |
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Tom
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| Posted: Tue Jun 26, 2012 12:30 am Post subject: |
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Planets in the 6th, 8th or 12th, have a tough time expressing themselves or "getting out." A strong planet in the 8th might ward off death for a bit, or it might mean the spouse has a hefty estate, but in general anything in the 8th is difficult. One way out is to be in aspect or mutual reception (aspect by sign will do) with a dispositor (Domicile or exaltation). I don't recall the chart off the top of my head but Albert Einstein has an exalted Mars in the 8th in mutual reception and square by sign with its dispositor Saturn.
I don't recall any other 8th house examples, but I do recall that George W. Bush's 12th house Sun in Cancer was square both dispositors (Moon and Jupiter) allowing an otherwise withdrawn Sun, in his case his ASC ruler, to get into the public spotlight.
I tend to think of planets in the 8th as "stuck." |
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AstroNovice
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| Posted: Tue Jun 26, 2012 6:02 am Post subject: |
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The point you bring up is really interesting. I do recall reading something along those lines in the 8th house friend or foe thread, I don't remember who said it, but someone stated that if planets in the 8th aspect planets in the 11th then it tends to lessen the negative effects of the 8th house. For myself personally, I have saturn conjunct the midheaven in the 11th house, this saturn is squared (and also in reception) by mercury in the 8th house. Mercury is in virgo. That being said, I see mercury aspecting saturn+MC as a way out not only for 8th house significations, but also for the rest of the stellium in the 8th house that my mercury disposits. That being said, forgive me for being dense, but im trying to think of what exactly the 8th house brings to the table even when it has an "out". You say that it might ward off death, or mean a rich spouse, but could there be any other things it might indicate?
I have lurked these forums for a while now, and I seem to recall that in one thread you said that you yourself have a few planets in the 8th house? (When you calculate your chart using whole sign) If thats so, is there any way that you feel the 8th house manifesting in your life? |
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Tom
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| Posted: Tue Jun 26, 2012 11:15 am Post subject: |
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The 8th house doesn't ward off death; having a strong benefic in the 8th might prevent (for a time obviously) 8th house stuff that could cause a premature death. Jean Baptiste Morin (1583-1656) pointed that out over and over again.
The planet in the 8th (or 6th or 12th) that needs to "get out" needs more than an aspect. It needs to be in aspect or mutual reception with a dispositor, preferably domicile or exaltation. I don't know if triplicity would be enough. I doubt triplicity in this sense has been noticed, much less studied.
The 8th kills. Isn't that enough? |
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AstroNovice
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| Posted: Tue Jun 26, 2012 8:34 pm Post subject: |
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| Ahaha, well I suppose the fact that the 8th represents death is fairly succinct way of looking at it. But still, whenever I get opportunities to read my friends charts, I am always at a loss at what to say when they have 8th house planets. I mean, the other houses are a bit more mundane in their meanings and fairly concrete, however with the 8th, I feel like its meaning is much more abstract and hard to grasp. I mean, I do realize that death is a pretty concrete concept, however it only happens once...so what happens until then? I do recall reading that the 8th house is a house of loss, and decline. However I usually interpret that in a financial sense, although perhaps it could be interpreted in a more broad fashion? As in a general sense of loss and decline, aka just plain old bad luck? |
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amymaddalozzo
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| Posted: Tue Jul 03, 2012 11:37 pm Post subject: |
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| Do you think that having a strong 8th house also can also mean a dependence on others? A friend of mine had 4 planets in her 8th house and spent the last several years of her life financially dependent on her family due to health issues. She also had a stropng 6th house--sun, venus and mercury in pisces there. (moon, jupiter, saturn and uranus in taurus in the 8th) She died at 46, by the way. |
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###
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| Posted: Wed Jul 04, 2012 12:18 am Post subject: |
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| amymaddalozzo wrote: | | Do you think that having a strong 8th house also can also mean a dependence on others? A friend of mine had 4 planets in her 8th house and spent the last several years of her life financially dependent on her family due to health issues. She also had a stropng 6th house--sun, venus and mercury in pisces there. (moon, jupiter, saturn and uranus in taurus in the 8th) She died at 46, by the way. |
It's easy to go too far with considerations of the number of planets in a house. Since this is the Traditional forum it's appropriate to say that the traditional approach is not to add up planets but to see what the planets are doing in the chart. It depends on what roles the planets are playing in that chart. Having the ASC ruler as the sole 8th house planet puts much focus on the 8th for that chart and person. Likewise, if there are 3 planets in the 8th and they are relatively secondary regarding the chart native himself or herself - for example, not ruling the ASC - then that doesn't necessarily give the 8th any sort of dramatic prominence. Traditional astrology focuses on finding the most prominent planets and determining in what areas of life a planet is most active. Counting up the planets in a sign or house is very modern, as is counting up aspects.
Regarding your friend, it depends on the roles those planets were playing in her chart. |
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Lakewind
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| Posted: Wed Jul 04, 2012 8:21 pm Post subject: |
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| Astronovice, your topic is very interesting. I have a grandson with an 8th house Taurus Sun. He developed OCD early in life and is a very anxious kid who appears to handle it by denial and enforced calm. Very brilliant little guy, was designing computer circuitry at 12 and laughing at Shakespeare's jokes. I guess the anecdotal focus here is on the anxiety, an 8th house matter. I do know someone with a venus in capricorn in the 8th, and he has tremendous anxiety about women, although, or probably because he attracts very tempestuous Pluto type women, and there he is, this mental Aquarian type who can't understand them very well. I must admit, he knows some scarey women! |
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hervaro
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| Posted: Thu Jul 05, 2012 8:19 am Post subject: |
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| Tom wrote: |
The planet in the 8th (or 6th or 12th) that needs to "get out" needs more than an aspect. It needs to be in aspect or mutual reception with a dispositor, preferably domicile or exaltation. I don't know if triplicity would be enough. I doubt triplicity in this sense has been noticed, much less studied.
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At the risk of deviating a bit from the original thread, I might share that it is has often confused me that my natal Mercury on Spica in the 12th, has no problems manifesting itself - when I am teaching (astrology or feng shui) or reading charts; in more private context, I tend to be more seclusive and often get complaints that I don't "share". Reading this thread and Tom's remark on the effect of triplicities (or not), I might deduct that Mercury's square from the 12th to its shared triplicity-ruler Jupiter in Cancer-9, does the trick, but only/mostly if the context of the 9th is met...
Herman
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Tom
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| Posted: Thu Jul 05, 2012 6:52 pm Post subject: |
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| If your Mercury in 12 is within five degrees of the ASC, that would explain it, assuming Mercury and the ASC are in the same sign. It would be better to either post your chart or the data in an effort to get feedback. |
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hervaro
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| Posted: Fri Jul 06, 2012 8:01 am Post subject: |
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Not looking for feedback, Tom. Only trying to contribute as you mentioned that triplicity rulers seem to go unnoticed and unstudied, with respect to helping a planet get out of a dark place... 
For those interested, I was born sept. 24, 1954, 10:10AM Central European Time, in Wilrijk (Antwerp, Be). 8° Scorpio rising, Mercury at 23°Libra and so in the 12th by division and by whole sign.
Herman
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favro
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| Posted: Fri Jul 06, 2012 6:24 pm Post subject: |
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| hervaro wrote: | Not looking for feedback, Tom. Only trying to contribute as you mentioned that triplicity rulers seem to go unnoticed and unstudied, with respect to helping a planet get out of a dark place...
Herman |
That is also what I understood from your post Herman. Thank you for sharing the info on your chart; a good example of triplicities at work in a chart.
favro |
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###
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| Posted: Fri Jul 06, 2012 10:21 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | I might share that it is has often confused me that my natal Mercury on Spica in the 12th, has no problems manifesting itself - when I am teaching (astrology or feng shui) or reading charts; in more private context, I tend to be more seclusive and often get complaints that I don't "share". Reading this thread and Tom's remark on the effect of triplicities (or not), I might deduct that Mercury's square from the 12th to its shared triplicity-ruler Jupiter in Cancer-9, does the trick, but only/mostly if the context of the 9th is met... |
I'm not sure what to do here. I know I'm further directing the discussion away from the 8th house itself, but in this example of leading a planet out of one of the 'bad' houses 6, 8, 12 I don't' think the Mercury-Jupiter configuration was treated correctly.
Since Herman publicly gave his chart data and ASC degree I don't think it's too boldly revealing of me to say that yes, a chart with Scorpio rising, Mars in Saturn-ruled Capricorn with Saturn in Scorpio conjunct the ASC will indeed indicate someone who's highly likely to be private and reticent when it comes to personal matters and feelings. With a Virgo Moon, no less. 
But in the activities of teaching and reading charts the focus is not on one's own feelings and life. We don't usually 'share' when doing them. A person can be highly private regarding personal matters and still be very active and prominent socially. These are different areas of life. So . . .
Why the focus on Mercury? Mercury isn't much of a personal significator in this chart. In delineation the 1st house and the ASC ruler take us miles in describing the person and how he or she thinks, acts and expresses himself or herself. Here we have Mars, as ASC ruler, exalted in cardinal Capricorn, sextile the ASC degree and sextile the 1st house Venus. There's plenty to show that this private person can still get out there and make plenty of contacts. These days I'm cautiously exploring the Moon's nodes. That ASC-ruling Mars is conjunct the North Node. A sign of increase in the activities and strength of Mars? The chart has an 11th house Sun in Cardinal Libra, a Sun rising to culmination, an active Sun. I don't see the concern over that 12th house Mercury as an indicator that the person doesn't "share". Those who might complain about that are responding to Saturn, Scorpio and Capricorn. And Venus, the one who simply adores sharing, is in ever-watchful Scorpio and located in the 1st house. In this chart Mercury isn't much of a player in those personal matters.
The way I see it, whether or not Mercury has trouble expressing itself would mostly be a matter concerning the Mercury-ruled houses rather than how the chart native himself speaks and acts. And Mercury does get plenty of help. It's aspecting diurnal Jupiter which is diurnally placed above the horizon in a diurnal chart, a Jupiter that is oriental of the Sun, a Jupiter in exaltation. This Jupiter has a lot to offer in a 9th house context. I don't see the triplicity consideration having a particularly important effect upon the Mercury-Jupiter configuration. Isn't the triplicity consideration alone a fairly minor consideration? But it might be something for me to keep in mind. Thank you for your example. |
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hervaro
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| Posted: Tue Jul 10, 2012 10:22 am Post subject: |
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Thank you for that exquisite read, Kirk (even when I didn't ask for it, lol).
You made me think hard about this configuration.
| Kirk wrote: |
I'm not sure what to do here. I know I'm further directing the discussion away from the 8th house itself, but in this example of leading a planet out of one of the 'bad' houses 6, 8, 12 I don't' think the Mercury-Jupiter configuration was treated correctly.
Since Herman publicly gave his chart data and ASC degree I don't think it's too boldly revealing of me to say that yes, a chart with Scorpio rising, Mars in Saturn-ruled Capricorn with Saturn in Scorpio conjunct the ASC will indeed indicate someone who's highly likely to be private and reticent when it comes to personal matters and feelings. With a Virgo Moon, no less.
(snip)
The way I see it, whether or not Mercury has trouble expressing itself would mostly be a matter concerning the Mercury-ruled houses rather than how the chart native himself speaks and acts. And Mercury does get plenty of help. It's aspecting diurnal Jupiter which is diurnally placed above the horizon in a diurnal chart, a Jupiter that is oriental of the Sun, a Jupiter in exaltation. This Jupiter has a lot to offer in a 9th house context. I don't see the triplicity consideration having a particularly important effect upon the Mercury-Jupiter configuration. Isn't the triplicity consideration alone a fairly minor consideration? But it might be something for me to keep in mind. Thank you for your example. |
You 're welcome. After thinking more I 'd like to add the following: Mercury rules 11th and 8th houses in my chart. Cannot really link the 11th of friends, except that oftentimes friendship results from exchange about matters of higher knowledge and healing techniques (ref. Jupiter 9th). But Mercury as significator of my fears and anxieties (which of course would also be signified by the Scorpio-clot) very well fits the workings of escaping through this Jupiter as triplicity ruler.
I 've had some rough decades in the past, when in a therapeutic context, especially a one-on-one one, I would hardly breath a word, I 'd just get locked up (have been known to not speak 1 word for more than a week, when upset, lol). But I discovered I could "vent" when reading a chart for a client, or even better, when teaching, using my own "darkness" as an example of how things could be astrologically defined or traced in time. And I discovered that the more I could "share" this way, the lighter things would become.
So maybe this *has* a bit more relevance to the Mercurial escape from 12!
Herman
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Herman
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###
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| Posted: Tue Jul 10, 2012 7:39 pm Post subject: |
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Hi Herman,
I was hoping I hadn't annoyed you by digging into your chart.  I did enjoy working with it and learned from it.
| Quote: | | But Mercury as significator of my fears and anxieties (which of course would also be signified by the Scorpio-clot) very well fits the workings of escaping through this Jupiter as triplicity ruler. |
This brings me back to our topic, the 8th house. I have agreed with the 8th signifying fears, but I'm not at all sure how to work with it. I always have felt the vagueness of it, of talking about fears, but this case has really pointed out the confusion of it.
Your statement "Mercury as significator of my fears and anxieties" doesn't sound quite right. Yes, Mercury rules the 8th but to call it the significator of fears and anxieites doesn't sound right with Saturn, Mr. Fear, sitting on the ASC in Scorpio. And might not fears be also very much connected with the Moon?
The Moon and Saturn are present in every chart, so I just can't get myself to look at the 8th house of a chart and say that 'The fears' are found here and are signified by whatever planet happens to rule that house. That leaves me not knowing what to do with fears in the 8th house. We can have fears about 7th house intimacy, 2nd house money or of being in public places (whatever house that may be). So what are 8th house fears?  |
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