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Ascensional times

 
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Hermes



Joined: 14 Jun 2011
Posts: 70

Posted: Tue Jun 12, 2012 3:30 pm    Post subject: Ascensional times Reply with quote

Hi all

Don't know if this topic was ever a stand alone on this forum, but I'd like to start one now.
I read something about it on the triplicity post, but it merits its own thread.

I've been researching this topic for a long time and still have difficulty getting purchase on it. I find it fascinating, but also frustrating.

let me state the problem(s) I (and you will) encounter.

As always it starts of pretty easy, Valens book 7 states it like this: 'Take the ascensional time of sign X and count it up with the period of planet Y in this sign. The sum gives a particular year.

That's the easy part. But when you start working the method, it soon becomes quite intricate.

One of the problems is, what exactly is timed here? The sum is the year this period ends, and the planet or sign gives over to..., what? Or does it end it's reign.
So what does this actually mean?
There are many references to this method, indirectly. There's a chart example in the Rhetorius translation by James Holden. It states that a certain effect of a planet only lasts until its period ends.

Next, Valens suggests that there are three periods one can use: short period of the planets, medium (of which he gives two version if I'm not mistaken), and long periods (so four possible periods in all).

So for any planet in sign position, this gives 4 possible years. That seems reasonable, but I have yet to find convincing evidence of what's shown by them.

Then Valens goes on to say that one can use the full number (of any thing counted up), half the value, one-third, and two-thirds of it. Neutral

And then he also varies the method by using the period(s) of the sun whenever a planet is in Leo (and it is not clear when or why he use what).

It is also possible to combine the periods of planets in aspect with each other, and/or use the periods their dispositors, and/or use the ascensional time of the sign of the aspected planet, combines with the period(s) of the aspecting or aspected planet, etc.

Anyone have experience with this?
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Tzadde



Joined: 07 Apr 2011
Posts: 137

Posted: Thu Jun 14, 2012 4:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Personally, I never tried this technique, but I can see it is very interesting and useful.

I'll give a link for those interested in the details of the subject: http://www.projecthindsight.com/images/TablesPDFs/Tb2-AscensionTimes.pdf
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Ile



Joined: 10 Oct 2010
Posts: 129

Posted: Mon Jul 30, 2012 1:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've struggled for a long time with the Rising Times of the signs too.
Valens gives an enormous amount of techniques for timing the "operativeness" of particular planet/s, but one of the good things at Valens is that he gives practical examples. If you calculate all the examples he gives after all these chapters where he speaks about the ascensional (rising) times of the signs, and study them carefully you will start to grasp his mindset little by little. The thing with Valens is that one can not skip the chapters or goes from one author to the other and then in the same time get to Valens. In my opinion, one author at a time - especially authors like Valens and Dorotheus who gave us a lot of material to work on and study - is a very needful approach in order to get into the mindset (intuitive-rational thinking if you will) of the author itself, as far as this is possible through his writing words adn examples.

I think that he first mentions this rising times when he speaks about finding the prosperity in the natal chart. He says to find the first two rulers of the Light in Sect and to see how they are positioned in the chart. The 2nd lord will be activated when the rising times of the Sign in which that planet is, is being activated.

Next in book VII he speaks thoroughly about this technique.
The point Valens here makes, and what lies underneath his thorough explanation of the ascensional times technique is that he wants to open our minds for the fact that in one particular time there are many operative planets and the combination of the meaning of that operative planets will give the final result and should be the final judgment of the astrologer.

One of the thing in hellenistic astrology is to be aware of this fact of Cronocrators (Chrono = Time, Crator = Ruler), or Time Rulers, and the fact that in one time there can be (as often does) several Time Lords.
Valens says that if these Time Lords are only benefics one should judge beneficial year. If mixed benefics and malefics, mixed year (in the examples he uses the judgment according to the most dominant planets which prevails the other group). If only malefics one should fear that year.

Lets give an example. My annual profections are in the 5th sign from the ascendant where I have the ruler Mars, alongside Saturn.
Mars is not of the sect favor and is therefore a little bit more triggered malefic then Saturn. (We are investigating 28th year of life)
One can predict dangerous year especially because transiting Mars is regarding natal Mars with an aspect from the right side.
And it was a dangerous year indeed. But in the same time I have Jupiter in Saturn's sign which gives 42 years total. 12 for Jupiter and 30 for Saturn.
Well what 42 has to do with 28?
It is 2/3 from 42! (14 + 14 + 14).
Also, Jupiter was activated through the ascension of the sign in which he is positioned natally.

This same Jupiter is regarding (we are investigating what this Jupiter is doing in annual revolutions just because he is activated as Time Lord, in contrary his importance would be lees or nullified) natal Mars and Saturn from the 11th house of Good Spirit.
Even though I was in dangers and quarels, and different kind of problems, I was able to "escape" them, I had a "lucky hand" on my shoulder.
Who knows what would had happen if only Mars ruled the year?!

So, this method needs practice and requires from the student to be devoted closely to what Valens has to say. One need to approach them with the right mind and attitude, with real desire to learn them and incorporate them in investigating the miracles of life.

One advice though, do not frustrate your self, research these techniques with a playful attitude, like a child and the right calculations for particular time will come to you very spontaneously and intuitively. The rational mind is sometimes the best delayer of learning. Smile
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horarcek



Joined: 24 Jul 2005
Posts: 135
Location: Slovenia

Posted: Thu Aug 09, 2012 3:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The second part of this article could be useful:

http://astrologyinstitute.com/progressions_directions.pdf

Trojan
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Hermes



Joined: 14 Jun 2011
Posts: 70

Posted: Mon Sep 17, 2012 4:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi NatanEpsilon

Thank you for your answer, and sorry for only now reading it.
It's been a while since I've been here.

How nice it is to meet someone who has tried and reseached the hellenistic techniques.

Quote:
The thing with Valens is that one can not skip the chapters or goes from one author to the other and then in the same time get to Valens. In my opinion, one author at a time - especially authors like Valens and Dorotheus who gave us a lot of material to work on and study - is a very needful approach in order to get into the mindset (intuitive-rational thinking if you will) of the author itself,


That's some good advice. But as we both know, each of these authors is challenging. Grasping their mindset or finding a way through their technique is not an easy task.
But rewarding...

Quote:
I think that he first mentions this rising times when he speaks about finding the prosperity in the natal chart. He says to find the first two rulers of the Light in Sect and to see how they are positioned in the chart. The 2nd lord will be activated when the rising times of the Sign in which that planet is, is being activated.


I know, but then again he mentions examples in which it's is not the rising times of the Image that holds the planet, but the period of the planet itself, or, the period of the domicileruler of the image the triplicityruler is placed in etc., etc., (see my initial post).

Quote:
that he wants to open our minds for the fact that in one particular time there are many operative planets and the combination of the meaning of that operative planets will give the final result and should be the final judgment of the astrologer.


Yeah, but the point - as I understand Valens - is that this is to be understood not as a mixing of the several techniques. I.e. you cannot mix the info of Zodiacal releasing with the info Profections give, nor with any of the other 11 methods discovered in het Greek texts.
I believe the only exception is ingressi (transits, and transits as per annual revolution), and these are then to confirm the potency of one of the indicators. So if Kronos is a time-lord, its arrival in one of the pivots, then makes his timelordship 'taut', potent, stronly manifest.

So, I would not quite agree with your example where you mix one method with other ones, again as I understand Valens. The mitigation of the effects would have to be in the Profection method as such, or perhaps even from a potent location (yearly fixated) transit of one of the benefics in your annual revolution, in an angle or something.
And you pointed that out very nicely, with that I do agree.

But again, this is my understanding of Valens, which might be mistaken (perhaps zoidiasoft can help us out here).

Looking forward to your response.
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Ile



Joined: 10 Oct 2010
Posts: 129

Posted: Tue Sep 18, 2012 9:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Hermes Smile

I wrote you a pm while ago, asking you to join the vettius valens yahoo group, but I assume that you haven't seen it yet.

I will give here really short reply of what I meant in my explanation of the example from my own personal life, and then will re-read some passages which I think are crucial for approaching the matter, and will come back again to propose my understanding of it.

I'm a Valens' enthusiast (therefore I've opened the group on yahoo) and not an expert that's for sure. So, it may be that I have misunderstood something from his techniques, but it's good that we are discussing it, we can in that way, hopefully, develop better understanding of the material presented in Anthology.

What I was trying to say in my example, is that if we take one unit of time, for example a Year. In that year you will have certain planets activated, or as Valens says "Operative". So, in a way, all the planets which are operative, will have strong dominion/influence over the life of the native. I drew an analogy (and I think this is where my "mixing of the techniques" came from) from the persian techniques of Abu Mashar for example, where he uses Firdaria ruler/s, distributors and Lord of the Year, as all being "Operative" in certain year, i.e. in the Revolution of the year.
They are all operative and have powerful influence.

So, taking this as analogy, I suggested that we can use Profections and Ascensional activations of the planets in certain signs, or inter-relationship sum ups, just the same as the persian combination of techniques.
If profected sign is activated and planets in it, I don't see why we should not take Jupiter's activation through Ascensional Times, to be operative and protective in certain year. They both rule in that certain amount of time unit: a year. This is why I said that Jupiter's activation through ascensional times, is the one who "protected" me against the negative influence of the malefic stars (just as a side note, to say that I was in really big trouble, a potential danger for my life and get out of it luckily {thanks God}). Valens often says this in his examples, that the person didn't experienced the worst, because in that time not only malefics ruled but benefics too. It is true that he does this in particular technique (ascensional times), and as far as I remember myself, he didn't mixed up the techniques in a way I did. But I'm not sure as I said, it may be that he did, I need to re-read those passages.

I may be wrong, and I hope we can clear these things up.
I'm fascinated with Valens, and I want to learn it as it is, without mixing and adding. And if I see that I was wrong, then will leave the mixing up of the two techniques and will follow Valens' techniques as they are explained there.

I'm looking forward for discussion on the matter Smile


P.S. I will leave a link to the group (I hope it is not illegal) and everyone who wants to join, please feel free to join Smile
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vettiusvalens/
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Hermes



Joined: 14 Jun 2011
Posts: 70

Posted: Fri Nov 09, 2012 3:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Ile

Again sorry for my late response, as before I am not a frequent visitor here, due to my job.
Thanks for the link to the Valens group!
Kind of you to mention it, it had passed me by, and I'm very thankful as I am an avid student of Valens.

Greetings, see you there.
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Hermes



Joined: 14 Jun 2011
Posts: 70

Posted: Fri Nov 09, 2012 3:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

And by the way, I was of course not suggesting your got things wrong :-). Often it's the astrologers who read things afresh or who are relatively new to the material, that can delve quite deep into the material.
You seem to be such a person.
I'm very pleased you are such an advocate of his work.

Valens is quite difficult to understand, and I very much hope Robert Schmidt will produce his revised translations of Valens' texts soon.
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