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Unfaithfulness in Natal,Revolution and Directions
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cgreen



Joined: 21 May 2012
Posts: 18

Posted: Mon Jun 11, 2012 9:48 pm    Post subject: Unfaithfulness in Natal,Revolution and Directions Reply with quote

William Lilly says Mars and Venus conjunction in the Revolution shows unfaithfulness, Do you agree with Lilly?

Have you read about any Natal,Revolution and Directions aspects that shows unfaithfulness?

What shows unfaithfulness in Natal,Revolution and Directions?
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Tzadde



Joined: 07 Apr 2011
Posts: 137

Posted: Tue Jun 12, 2012 1:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Some old school astrologers (Medieval ones, especially) used to write that Moon-Mars conjunction shows lust, wanton or lewd desires in female genitures.

I have never studied and applied in depth this sort of stuff, honestly. Although in a horary where a husband asks about his wife's faithfulness, this conjunction alone might be a fair warning.

Other opinions are welcome. Smile
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Vicki



Joined: 14 Aug 2012
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Location: Nottingham U.K.

Posted: Thu Oct 04, 2012 10:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have the chart of someone known to have been unfaithful.

The waxing Moon separates from a square to Mars and applies to an opposition with Venus.

According to Firmicus Maternus "Matheseos" Liber Quartus XI "The waxing or Full Moon moving from Mars to Venus makes adulterers, passionate lovers, always troubled by sexual desires and dangerous adventures."

I would add that in this case the Moon is in fall in Scorpio and Venus is conjoin Algol so I think he suffered for it!
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johannes susato



Joined: 04 Jan 2009
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Posted: Thu Oct 04, 2012 11:12 am    Post subject: Re: Unfaithfulness in Natal,Revolution and Directions Reply with quote

cgreen wrote:
William Lilly says Mars and Venus conjunction in the Revolution shows unfaithfulness, Do you agree with Lilly?

cgreen, it would be interesting to verify your Lilly-quotation. Would you mind to go give information, where you have read it? Thanks.

Johannes
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zoomaster



Joined: 31 Jul 2010
Posts: 28
Location: Hyderabad, India

Posted: Thu Oct 04, 2012 4:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mars in Taurus, Libra, or Pisces, Venus in Aries, Scorpio, or Capricorn...also, inharmonious aspects between Mars and Venus will indicate some sort of sexual licentiousness. Mars conjunct Venus, and even Mars/Venus harmonious aspects or reception can indicate this. Basically just look out for those two planets...there is a reason why the ancients were quite emphatic regarding their torrid love affair and infidelity.
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Ile



Joined: 10 Oct 2010
Posts: 129

Posted: Thu Oct 04, 2012 6:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

According to Dorotheus licentious signs are:
Aries and Taurus (Domicile of Mars and Venus).
Capricorn and Pisces (Exaltations of Mars and Venus).

Rhetorius adds Libra (because it rises with Capricorn) and Leo.
Al Qabisi also adds Leo to his list.

So, as we can see these are mostly the signs related to Mars and Venus.

For the ancients Sun and Moon were more related to the matrimonial union, while Mars and Venus to the sexual union of man and woman.
Hermes says that women being cold in nature, needs to take something from the hot nature of Sun and Mars which stimulates them toward sexual union. "It is like a balance between them and stars", says Hermes.
On the other hand, men being hot in nature, need to be counterbalanced through Moon and Venus.

Rhetorius in Ch. 116 advises us to look in the signs where the Lord of ASC, Lord of Fortune and Lord of Daimon falls, to delineate the native's "carnal nature".
Umar al-Tabari adds Venus, Sun, Lot of Marriage, and Lord of the 7th.

Venus in conjunction with Mars or in its terms would also add something to the sexual appetite (I can't remember where I've read this).

So, if a person has accentuated signs of the above listed, with the significators in it, then it is more likely that this person is prone to overly stimulated passions, or carnal desires.
Angles, especially AC and DC are also important in this examination.

Lot of the Unchastity of Women (Asc + Mars - Moon) is also not to be neglected. This formula given by Al-Biruni is also given to other similar lots:
- Misconduct by women
- Intercourse of women with men.

Lot of Sexual Unions (ASC + DC - Venus) is also informative.

Trickery and deception of men and women (Asc + Venus - Sun).
This one was exactly on Solar Return DSC in the year when my friend's wife cheated on him.

Remember that if something is not promised in the natal chart, you can't find it in the predictive delineation techniques like Solar Returns or like.
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lihin



Joined: 14 Dec 2009
Posts: 470
Location: Mount Kailash

Posted: Fri Oct 05, 2012 8:06 am    Post subject: Moralism? Reply with quote

Good morning,

One reads phrases like 'unfaithfulness', 'cheated on him' in various places in this thread. These are moralistically judgemental expressions. Are they appropriate in an objective astrological context? To what extent do they reflect patriarchal and / or theological prejudices?

Do most readers share the opinion that Mediaeval astrology is simply a continuation of Hellenistic? Do the heavy warps and censorship inflicted by Abrahamic religious theologies (e. g. the interpolations in the texts of Dorotheus of Sidon; the elimination of all references to The Goddess, House of The Goddess, Goddesses) upon Heathen Tradition in Mediaeval astrology go unnoticed?

Some authorities on Mediaeval astrology opine that Mediaeval astrologers were obligated to veil the Heathen underpinnings of astrology. Nevertheless, both Indian and Hellenistic astrologies offer a clearer transmission of unfettered original Heathen Tradition than Mediaeval astrology. They waste little energy to deal with an artificial issue of 'free will of the individual souls', an eventuality only required for example by Christian and Islamic theologies to have objects capable of assuming post-mortem merits and / or guilts. The mainstream Heathen view is immortality of the soul (singular!), Anima Mundi, Paramatma.

Best regards,

lihin
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Paul
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Joined: 23 Nov 2009
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Posted: Fri Oct 05, 2012 10:38 am    Post subject: Re: Moralism? Reply with quote

lihin wrote:

One reads phrases like 'unfaithfulness', 'cheated on him' in various places in this thread. These are moralistically judgemental expressions. Are they appropriate in an objective astrological context? To what extent do they reflect patriarchal and / or theological prejudices?


In what sense are the not objective? If you live in a monogamous relationship, and the expectations of monogamy are understood at the beginning of the relationship by both sides, which is the 'norm' of relationships these days, then for someone to pretend to be monogamous with their partner but is in fact sleeping with someone else or has done so, then in what sense is not an objective reality to state that this purpose has 'been unfaithful'. It is not a theological prejudice. It in no way pertains to matters of god. It is a social construct that has been breached.

Now in addition to the fact that a spouse has cheated on his/her partner, there can often be judgemental expressions, but that is a separate matter.

Quote:
Do most readers share the opinion that Mediaeval astrology is simply a continuation of Hellenistic?


I don't know, but I do not. I would say that it is an evolution or elaboration of the hellenistic astrology, but it is not simply a continuation of what was already in the hellenistic tradition. For example we see a great deal on horary in the medieval tradition - we have scant sources if any in the hellenistic tradition (by which I mean horary itself rather than the consultation chart, it's probable roots). We also have developments where the north node takes on benefic qualities in the medieval tradition whereas both nodes are more or less unfavourable in the hellenistic tradition. Sect's importance in Hellenistic astrology was focused upon whether a planet was of the sect of the chart, ie whether a day or night chart, but later in the medieval period an increased focus on sect became whether a diurnal planet was above the horizon, whether by day or night.
It is not therefore simply a continuation any more than modern astrology is simply a continuation of traditional astrology, though the modern example may be more extreme.

Quote:

Do the heavy warps and censorship inflicted by Abrahamic religious theologies (e. g. the interpolations in the texts of Dorotheus of Sidon; the elimination of all references to The Goddess, House of The Goddess, Goddesses) upon Heathen Tradition in Mediaeval astrology go unnoticed?


Heathen Tradition? Is this meant to mean hellenistic astrology? If so it is a gross misnomer if it is meant to mean that the hellenistic astrology was pagan. Authors like Firmicus Maternus are still within the hellenistic period but were not forever pagan (if this is what you mean by heathen?), Maternus of course converted to christianity.
I'm afraid I can only guess what you mean by "Heathen Tradition".

Quote:
Nevertheless, both Indian and Hellenistic astrologies offer a clearer transmission of unfettered original Heathen Tradition than Mediaeval astrology.


Define 'original' in this context?
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johannes susato



Joined: 04 Jan 2009
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Posted: Fri Oct 05, 2012 11:37 am    Post subject: Re: Moralism? Reply with quote

lihin wrote:
[..]Nevertheless, both Indian and Hellenistic astrologies offer a clearer transmission of unfettered original Heathen Tradition than Mediaeval astrology. They waste little energy to deal with an artificial issue of 'free will of the individual souls', an eventuality only required for example by Christian and Islamic theologies to have objects capable of assuming post-mortem merits and / or guilts. The mainstream Heathen view is immortality of the soul (singular!), Anima Mundi, Paramatma.

I see this thread partly as critical as you, lihin. But as to the above quotation and without wanting to begin a theological discussion: The immortality of the soul cannot be a differentiator between 'heathen' and 'christian', the immortality of soul being one of the dogmas of christianity.

Johannes
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###



Joined: 08 Jul 2004
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Posted: Fri Oct 05, 2012 7:38 pm    Post subject: Re: Moralism? Reply with quote

. . .

Last edited by ### on Tue Oct 23, 2012 11:47 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Geoffrey



Joined: 09 Jul 2012
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Location: Scottish Borders

Posted: Sat Oct 06, 2012 7:37 am    Post subject: Re: Moralism? Reply with quote

lihin wrote:
Nevertheless, both Indian and Hellenistic astrologies offer a clearer transmission of unfettered original Heathen Tradition than Mediaeval astrology.


Lithin is being rather dumped on in this thread, but I think there is a point to be made that any of the astrological writers writing down the last two thousand years or so was writing within the context of his own culture and that culture provides a third dimension to the written text. It is, if you like, the text that was not written down, but which was understood by all. It's like some recipes by French master chefs, they do not list all the ingredients. Why? Because "everybody knows" the basic ingredients to be used!

As a quick example, why did Lilly entitle his book "Christian Astrology"? That word 'Christian' in the title is (as far as I recall) the first and last time the word was used in a book of over eight hundred pages. Why did he feel it was necessary to use that title in a way which nobody would feel necessary today?

Anybody reading those works at the time they were written would have understood that cultural context, but the further you get from that time and that culture, the less you recognise that there is often a difference in meaning and inflection - especially when reading a work in modern translation.

So, I think it is easy to fall into the trap that Indian and Hellenistic writers were somehow writing 'culture free' text. I think there is an alternative explanation that their culture was so alien to us that we simply do not recognise the cultural backdrop to their writings. Their text is sparser and more poetic than later writing styles, meaning that there would have been a heavier reliance on the cultural sub-text - which we are completely missing out on today - not less.

Geoffrey
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Nixx



Joined: 10 Dec 2011
Posts: 295

Posted: Sat Oct 06, 2012 1:33 pm    Post subject: Re: Moralism? Reply with quote

Geoffrey wrote:
As a quick example, why did Lilly entitle his book "Christian Astrology"? That word 'Christian' in the title is (as far as I recall) the first and last time the word was used in a book of over eight hundred pages. Why did he feel it was necessary to use that title in a way which nobody would feel necessary today?



Frawley in his, some might say irreverent or heretical or oblivious, Carter Memorial gives you one spin on the ''why''.

http://www.astrologiamedieval.com/Tradition-in-Astrology.htm
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Geoffrey



Joined: 09 Jul 2012
Posts: 377
Location: Scottish Borders

Posted: Sat Oct 06, 2012 3:39 pm    Post subject: Re: Moralism? Reply with quote

Nixx wrote:


Frawley in his, some might say irreverent or heretical or oblivious, Carter Memorial gives you one spin on the ''why''.

http://www.astrologiamedieval.com/Tradition-in-Astrology.htm


Thanks for that. That was good fun Laughing

Geoffrey
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Nixx



Joined: 10 Dec 2011
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Posted: Sun Oct 07, 2012 1:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I can imagine the audience may have been laughing or crying or more likely head scratching. Is this output the cleverest 'astro' scam of the last 30yrs I wonder. Regardless it's pure post modernism..............
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Geoffrey



Joined: 09 Jul 2012
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Posted: Sun Oct 07, 2012 6:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The justification and correctness of Frawley's explanation of the word "Christian" in the title of Lilly's book lies in its erudite obscurity, and with this in mind I quote from his talk:-

"So the popular game among traditional astrologers of beating each other on the head with weighty volumes is a foolish one. There are those who like to play ‘My authority is older than yours’. Others prefer the variant ‘My authority is more obscure than yours’ – if you can base the whole of your astrology on the work of someone whom nobody else has ever heard of, you’ve really got something!"

It seems Frawley can play the game as well as anyone!

However, the point I was making was that the word 'Christian' never appears again in the book, which means Lilly did not need to refer to it again or explain the title - everybody would have known why he put that word in the title. The reason was not erudite or obscure, it was common cultural currency at that time.

Geoffrey
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