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Lilly's Considerations
compiled by D. Houlding
Book II of Carmen Astrologicum by Dorotheus
translated by David Pingree
Compiled by Deborah Houlding
The Babylonian Astrolabe: the Calendar of Creation, by Rumen K. Kolev
Reviewed by Gill Zukovskis

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bonatti's 146 considerations
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james_m



Joined: 05 Dec 2011
Posts: 1711
Location: vancouver island

Posted: Thu Jun 21, 2012 7:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

tzadde,

thanks! that is a good insight. i am trying to think of any other examples where planets in opposite signs of exaltation happen, other then saturn in libra to sun in aries, but can't come up with anything. by this logic would one then rationalize that mars and jupiter are always on unfriendly terms with one another, regardless their sign position? same deal saturn to sun?
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Tzadde



Joined: 07 Apr 2011
Posts: 137

Posted: Fri Jun 22, 2012 4:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

james_m wrote:
by this logic would one then rationalize that mars and jupiter are always on unfriendly terms with one another, regardless their sign position? same deal saturn to sun?

Not really. Remember the receptions? They are the exceptions.

Aphorisms are generalizations, not exactly rules. They have a theoretical basis that apply to many charts, but not all of them. That's why you have to judge the chart by itself and not by general approaches, because each chart is particular from others.
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james_m



Joined: 05 Dec 2011
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Posted: Fri Jun 22, 2012 8:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

hi tzadde,

your response sounds like something i would say!

really though, bonatti has got this 110th consideration which i want to explore further and which you have obliged me so far. i know about the receptions and would like to treat them in a separate conversation as i have some thoughts on that too. either folks accept what is handed them from the distant past, or they ask questions as to why these folks arrived at the position they did.. it would be nice if it was all based on observation, but i see a lot of theoretical ideas that aren't backed up by observation. to go back to the mention of reception, if you are going to allow this rule to make everything nice between 2 planets for example in each others domicile when in fact they don't jive with the domicile, why not extend it by doing the same with exaltations? to me there is no answer to these questions. either one accepts the theory, or not.

to go back to the 110th consideration.. saying jupiter and mars are natural enemies based off a scorpio ascendant with cancer on the 9th house (saying nothing about sect consideration for the moment) seems really curious. the description given seems to ignore any commonality between these 2 water signs and jump over to purely a consideration of the way planets jive trumping any consideration like this. also, tell me if i have this wrong, but my understanding is a trine aspect which is how the ascendant connects to the 9th, (especially in bonattis time with his use of whole sign houses) is considered favourable.. sorry, i just don't get it, which is why i am extending the logic to see it all the way thru..

as for rules.. being a strong fire/mars type - i don't immediately latch onto rules, or only in so far as i think they are relevant. i do like what you say though - you have to judge the chart by itself, and not by general approaches - which is indeed what a lot of these 146 considerations cover.
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Clelia Romano



Joined: 31 Mar 2008
Posts: 353
Location: São Paulo

Posted: Tue Jun 26, 2012 4:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Now that you said it, I had a revelation: I actually know someone with Aries Asc who is homeless! In childhood he was adopted (born in UK), then lived on his own, without marriage, without a real home (up to a point in his life, he lived in a rented house, so not his own house) then moved from Michigan (where he had a job) to California, where he became jobless and homeless.


I studied some homeless' charts comparing to the natives history and their chart did not looked like " terrible" except by some of them which became sick or addicted to drugs. Most of them simply appeared to live in the streets because of a total disregard with respect living in a house or having a home, as if it was the natural way of living during some periods or during their lives.
I found out that many of them had much planets in the oriental side of the chart.


Quote:
You know, Capricorn and Cancer are opposite to each other; they are the exaltations of Mars (war) and, respectively, Jupiter (peace). They are enemies in regard to this opposition
.

Good point!
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Clelia Romano



Joined: 31 Mar 2008
Posts: 353
Location: São Paulo

Posted: Tue Jun 26, 2012 5:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Astrojin wrote:

Quote:
The pre-natal syzygy is referred to in many techniques in natal astrology. One good example is the determination of hyleg. There are five “points” of hyleg that can take up the function of hyleg and they are the Big Three (Ascendant, Sun and Moon) and the pre-natal syzygy (being the “composite” of Sun and Moon) and also Lot of Fortune (being the “composite” of Ascendant, Sun and Moon). The pre-natal syzygy also gets a looking when considering profession, parents, spiritual consideration, etc. There is one area not mentioned by many astrologers i.e. that one should look into i.e. the relationship between a native’s natal chart and the mundane charts. If a natal chart is strongly connected to the lunation chart, his destiny is going to touch the “many” (remember that the moon represents the public!). If a natal chart is strongly connected to the Jupiter-Saturn chart, Ingress chart and lunation chart, we have a native who is going to affect the public in a MAJOR way. It is as if the world has chosen this native as instrument to fulfil certain parts of destiny indicated in the mundane charts. This is a partial reason for the ancients using the natal charts of Kings in order to predict the destiny of his Kingdom or the mundane generally. The fact that he is King, shows that his natal chart is very much connected to the mundane world – and hence, looking into his natal chart is also like looking into the mundane chart somehow. Similarly, the mundane planetary transits seem to affect the King more than others. Why? Because his chart is connected to the mundane chart in the first place. So, we could also observe the mundane planetary configurations to predict the King’s life (without having to know the King’s natal chart) because of the believe that his natal chart is strongly connected to the mundane chart!


Hello astrojin!

Your hypothesis is fascinating and I used some time to investigate the charts of our last presidents in order to correlate them to the Brazil´s chart, especially regarding the SAN conjunctional or preventional.
I found out some squares between the Brazil´s SAN and the personal presidents points, but I have this correlation in many other no presidential charts, so I don´t know if the president is chosen in correlation to this particular point. I saw the following (taking into account the last 16 years):
Fernando Henrique Cardoso: Venus Mercury in Gemini in conjunction and Moon conjunct Jupiter in Cancer.
Lula: Moon conjunct Saturn and Mars in Cancer
Dilma Rouseff: Sun and Jupiter in Sagittarius ( under the rays) and Mercury oriental to the Sun.
Brazil: SAN in 8º of Pisces, Sun 14º of Virgo, Mercury 23º Virgo

The presidents have points in common between them, probably because the present "times" required that kind of presidential charts.
The chart of the ex president Collor who suffered a impeachment (1992) before Fernando Henrique´s presidency (1996) has nothing to do with the posterior presidential charts.

In conclusion, it is the moment (or times of the planetary rulers of the country) that chooses the president, but surely there is a default setting among those eligible. Such a configuration may have more to do with the chart of the country as a whole.
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sun_flower



Joined: 28 Dec 2010
Posts: 4
Location: China

Posted: Tue Jul 03, 2012 5:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hello James_m

Happy to see someone discuss the Bonatti'146 considerations. I have studied it too and had a question before (please see this post:http://skyscript.co.uk/forums/viewtopic.php?t=6199
Can anyone explain this? Why does lord of the twelfth take part in the first participator?)

Levente Laszlo's answer is very helpful ,thank you.

(I have not read all posts yet.This post is too long to read quickly.)

I depend on Ben Dykes'translation but also compare with Henry Coley's .

Please allow me quote:

"70.Whether the Lord of the New or Full Moon preventional, be in any of the Angles
The 70th Consideration is, To mind another secret; not well searched into by Astrologers, but often times doing them much prejudice; that is, see in all Questions, etc., whether the Lord of the New or Full Moon, preventional last before, be in any of the Angles of the thing enquired after; if it be, it denotes that the business will be accomplished, unless it be the Querent’s own fault (or that God overrule against it),though perhaps by other significations it seemed not likely.
But if it shall not happen so but only the same is in the Ascendant; and the other significators that is, The Lord of the Ascendant of the thing enquired of and the Moon, or any of them assist, the thing well be done with ease. If it be in Cadent Houses, it will scarce ever be, though other significators seem never so favourable; and if two at least of them be not so, take it for certain it will never be done."

Henry Coley translated the Lord of the New or Full Moon Clearly .
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james_m



Joined: 05 Dec 2011
Posts: 1711
Location: vancouver island

Posted: Thu Jul 05, 2012 2:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

hi mingwei,

i took a look at the thread you mention in your post here.. it discusses the 146th consideration. i must have been happy to reach the end of the book and not given it too much attention, but it sounds like a greek or arabic part or lot the way it is described.. once you find that spot, you use it as a partner to the lord of the question.. interesting and complicated! i bet no one does this.. maybe someone else can comment.. it is a mystery to me if anyone uses this.

ps - i can't find anyone to give me a rationale for the 70th consideration.. maybe folks don't take bonatis too seriously like they let on, lol..

quote from your link :
Quote:

146. To observe who shall partake in the dominion with the Significators
The 146th consideration is, That thou take the place of the Lord of the Ascendant, and the place of the Lord of the 12th , and subtracting the lesser from the greater add to the remainder the degrees of the sign ascending and project from the Ascendant; and where the number falls the Lord of the sign shall be partner with the Lord of the Question, and shall be called the Principal Partner.
Again, take the place of the Lord of the said sign, and place of the Lord of the Part of Fortune, and subtracting the lesser from the greater add the degrees of that sign shall be another Partner, and be called the Secondary Partner; which if it happen to be the same Planet, regard only that; but if different, then take both and subtract the lesser from the greater and add the degrees of the sign ascending, and the planet on whose House the number falls shall be the third Partner; and which of those three is the strongest shall be the chiefest sharer in the significations of the thing enquired after. If all the remainders, or two of them, shall happen on the House of one Planet; that shall be preferred. If the Question seem good, and those Partners are ill disposed, they will diminish of the good signified by the Question, and so on the contrary; but if the Question seem evil, and they are well disposed, they will allay and mitigate the evil signified by the Question, and so likewise on the contrary.
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